Author Topic: Characters above Level 20  (Read 540 times)

Offline Milos Gulan

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Characters above Level 20
« on: October 11, 2016, 10:43:10 AM »
This is maybe a bit more complicated topic but I just wanted to hear what You guys think about it, or at least to say what I think hoping that maybe DC will have this option, and maybe to figure out details just for my self how things works about leveling up characters above Lv20.

First there was Basic D&D and it has rules for Leveling up to Lv36 and then rules for becoming Immortal and to Lv40. Just for note this is Mystara (aka Known World) and most of the older modules including Keep on the Borderlands.

Then Ad&d reformed things and leveling was to Lv20, because mostly fighters Thac0 progressed one point per level. But Dragon Kings (Dark Sun Setting) introduced leveling up to Lv30 and rules for becoming Dragon or Avangion (or powerful creatures), also there are rules in Priest Spell Compendium (at the end) that advances this to how to become Immortal (I guess similar to D&D, You need to do something very important and be higher lv the 20, though I am not sure as I have not read it all). Also in Myth Drannor there is spell progression table for Magic Users to advance from Lv30 to Lv40 (for Phaerims but it is universal).

That is it in short. I am preparing for a longer campaign (hopefuly Greyhawk Ruins, and others, I wish I could somehow rework Village of Hommlet and Temple of Elemental Evil and Up) and would like to see demigods and gods in my games (like for example Vaprak, or Zagyg in Castle Greyhawk. ect), but also would like to have possibility of having option to become Immortal (like for example Kelemvor and his group from FR). Now I am not sure how things would be after that with avatars but I guess this is a topic that I would like to see in DC, note that I am still not very far from Lv 1-3 and this is just my thinking :) about it all.



Offline manikus

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Re: Characters above Level 20
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »
Try opening DC and looking - you will find that we allow up to level 40. :)

Offline Milos Gulan

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Re: Characters above Level 20
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2016, 03:02:23 PM »
Ok that is good enough :) I will have to try it eventualy. Then I might post more 8)

Online Nol Drek

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Re: Characters above Level 20
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2016, 07:28:39 PM »
Then Ad&d reformed things and leveling was to Lv20

AD&D does not have any such limit on character levels.

The Player's Handbook from 1978 has tables for Cleric and Wizard spell progression up to level 29. The experience tables indicate that Fighters, for example, need "250,000 experience points per level for each additional level beyond the 11th" with no stated or implied maximum. The CLASS LEVEL LIMITATIONS table has many races with a "U" in the race column, indicating that a character of the race in question has "no limitation as to how high the character can go with regard to level in the appropriate class". There is even an official 1st edition AD&D adventure published by the name of H4: The Throne of Bloodstone which is for character levels 18-100.
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Offline manikus

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Re: Characters above Level 20
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2016, 02:12:57 PM »
Nol is of course correct. :) DC has a cap of 40 because that is what FRUA had. No one has asked us to raise this, so it will likely stay that way.

Offline Milos Gulan

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Re: Characters above Level 20
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2016, 09:49:44 AM »
True about Throne of Bloodstone. I was wondering how it would be to adventure with such high level characters. I guess It would be more interesting to have option to advance above Level 40 but since yet I have never had such high level character I guess it can wait :)

But there was level limit, I remember reading about it. Here is one link that confirms it and it says about it in History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_level

Now I can see there that actualy there are rules for Lv20-30 in Dungeon Master Option: High-Level Campaigns Book.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 10:07:19 AM by Milos Gulan »

Offline manikus

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Re: Characters above Level 20
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2016, 12:55:49 PM »
Did you notice in the first paragraph that "Epic Levels" applies to 3rd edition and above?

Offline Milos Gulan

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Re: Characters above Level 20
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2016, 10:46:54 AM »
Yes, but in 2nd edition that term wasn't used still that is the meaning of High Level Adventuring or maybe better to say higher then Level 20.

Offline manikus

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Re: Characters above Level 20
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2016, 12:53:20 PM »
If you want to call levels over 20 in your design "Epic Levels" that is fine with me. But it doesn't mean the same thing as the term when applied to 3e and higher. You should actually read about Epic Levels to see what I mean - the term means more than just higher numbers and more hit points.

Offline Milos Gulan

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Re: Characters above Level 20
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2016, 01:33:47 AM »
Yes I understand, but how to call them? I was thinking to call them maybe Highest level. I know that epic levels is term from 3e and up and I still don't have my own terms for leveling in 2e but lets try to shape that in words: 1-4 Starting Levels, 5-8 Experienced Levels, 9-14 High Levels, 15-20 Very High Levels, 20-30 Highest Levels, 30+ Divinity (or Immortal) Levels. Ok I think that would be it for me, Maybe words are not so good but at least I think that I got numbers good.

Anyway here is what that article in Wiki said about it and it calls it high level play (above 20):

High-level play (above 20th level) was first introduced in the green-boxed Companion Set for the Basic Set in 1983. Although it was not specifically termed "epic", the rules covered play for characters as high as 25th level. It was quickly followed by the black-boxed Master Set (allowing play up to 36th level) and the gold-boxed Immortals Set (which detailed play beyond 36th level). During this time, what is now called the "First Edition" of the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (AD&D) game, it had little support for characters above 20th level beyond rules for level advancement.

AD&D Second Edition also limited characters to 20th level, until late in the game's life. In 1996, TSR released Dungeon Master Option: High-Level Campaigns, which covered characters in any high-level game and included rules for characters of levels 2130.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 01:36:27 AM by Milos Gulan »

Online Nol Drek

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Re: Characters above Level 20
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2016, 08:46:39 PM »
Yes I understand, but how to call them?

If you want to use 1st Edition Basic D&D, then the names are:
Basic Levels 1-3
Expert Levels 4-14
Companion Levels 15-25
Master Levels 26-36
Immortal Levels 37+

If you want to use 1st Edition AD&D, then the name is:
Advanced Levels 1-Infinity

Though the only advantage for classes above level 29 in 1st Edition AD&D is increased hit points, which has already been included in Dungeon Craft up to level 40.

I suspect this is only a discussion of semantics: an Epic Level character by any other name would still have the same THAC0.

Or, were you suggesting that the names would somehow be visible to the player and effect game play?
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Offline Milos Gulan

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Re: Characters above Level 20
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2016, 03:42:58 AM »
No I was just trying to sort things for myself. I was thinking that it might be better to group adventures by level, that is why I am using description of level.

The problem with adventures is that they are grouped by level and You need to know the group of levels which are they for, and naming that group is just for things to be more realistic. I guess like in 1e every level had name of the profession rank, if I remember good. Here it is actualy http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~leirbakk/rpg/adnd/classesandkits/level.html 

Offline Null Null

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Re: Characters above Level 20
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2016, 09:05:56 AM »
4th ed had the heroic tier (1-10), the paragon tier (11-20), and the epic tier (21-30).

Realistically it's always sort of up in the air because of level inflation over the years...DC is made 'in the image  of FRUA' which was 1st ed, but most modern gamers have some experience with 3.5 at the very least which leaned higher. You could always put 'for levels 7-10' or whatever, which has  the advantage of being on the cover of old modules, so you get the nostalgia factor.  ;)

Offline Milos Gulan

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Re: Characters above Level 20
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2016, 12:58:52 PM »
I like DC a lot because it was for 1e (and possibly 2e). But the point is there are 2e rules for characters that are above level 20 which is actualy new for me, like for example wizards above lv20 get some sage abilties ect. After Lv30 they can take a path to immortality. That is something I never really explored in Ad&d. Now I am thinking that FR characters from Avatar trilogy (Kelemvor and others) is good example of that.

Offline Darcnyss

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Re: Characters above Level 20
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2016, 01:29:25 PM »
If I recall correctly, the characters in the Avatar series were a special case, since a FR guidebook I have lists Midnight in her mortal days as a level 7 wizard. The Forgotten Realms Wiki also confirms this...