Author Topic: What is the thief saving throw bug, exactly?  (Read 1921 times)

Offline OutoftheBlue

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What is the thief saving throw bug, exactly?
« on: August 14, 2015, 12:22:36 AM »
I've seen the 'thief saving throw bug' mentioned but not really defined.  Thieves do seem to save way more than I would expect in FRUA.  Does anyone know if it affects all their saves (ie. poison, breath wpn) and all thief levels?  If I changed any monster's class to thief would they have super saving throws?

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: What is the thief saving throw bug, exactly?
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2015, 07:45:03 AM »
I'm sure someone with more knowledge will come along as I'm just going by memory, but I think the Thief saving throws were incorrectly set to 1 (possibly 2) on their saving throw tables for all levels.  This essentially means that the thief only needs to roll a 1 (or 2) or higher on a d20 in order to save...which means that they pretty much never fail saving throws.

If it's set to 1, they have a 100% success rate.  If it's 2, it's 95%.

I believe this issue has been fixed in the unofficial FRUA 1.3 patch.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 07:46:36 AM by ProphetSword »
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Offline PetrusOctavianus

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Re: What is the thief saving throw bug, exactly?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2015, 12:21:31 PM »
I recall using CKIT.exe (I think it was) to manually fix the saving throws.
So either patch 1.3 didn't fix them, or else I didn't know it, and fixed them anyway. My memory is a bit hazy these days.

Offline OutoftheBlue

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Re: What is the thief saving throw bug, exactly?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2015, 09:59:41 PM »
Thieves don't save 100% of the time, so I'm guessing their saves are set at 2, or Ad&d rules make a roll of a 1 an automatic failure.  It could be viewed as a feature instead of a bug, since FRUA thieves are so crappy in almost all other aspects; they can at least save almost all the time, although a 1st level thief saving 95% percent of time is a little over the top for me.

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: What is the thief saving throw bug, exactly?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2015, 06:39:40 AM »
I don't find FRUA thieves to be "crappy."  They do the same things as the Gold-Box thieves, which were based on AD&D thieves. They seem to work fine except for the saving throw issue.
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Offline Nol Drek

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Re: What is the thief saving throw bug, exactly?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2015, 09:08:02 AM »
FRUA Thieves are essential in any design where the author took the time to use a "Who Tries" events followed by a skill check.
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Offline hans

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Re: What is the thief saving throw bug, exactly?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2015, 02:23:12 PM »
I usually include a thief in my party, but I must admit that it is always as either a dual-classed or multi-classed combo.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 07:23:39 PM by hans »

Offline OutoftheBlue

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Re: What is the thief saving throw bug, exactly?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2015, 07:00:38 PM »
I don't find FRUA thieves to be "crappy."  They do the same things as the Gold-Box thieves, which were based on AD&D thieves. They seem to work fine except for the saving throw issue.

ProphetSword, I must respectfully disagree.  I believe thieves are an underpowered class.  Thieves get only 1d6 hps/lvl, have the second worst Thac0 progression and have pretty awful armor selection.  In combat they tend to be the weakest link in a party.  Outside combat their abilities can range from useless to absolutely necessary depending on if and how a designer makes checks for their skills.  That said I almost always include a split class F/T in my Goldbox and FRUA parties, but mostly because I'm afraid I'll miss something if I don't.

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: What is the thief saving throw bug, exactly?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2015, 07:56:34 PM »
Thieves get only 1d6 hps/lvl, have the second worst Thac0 progression and have pretty awful armor selection. 

This is pretty much in accordance with AD&D.  I'm not really seeing the problem with that.

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In combat they tend to be the weakest link in a party. 

Unless you use them to backstab...in which case they deal out more damage than the rest of the party in melee.  I was just playing "Treasures of the Savage Frontier" about an hour ago and I used a Thief to backstab a warrior for 38 points of damage in a single hit, which outright murdered him.  Not to mention that Thieves get a +4 bonus to hit when backstabbing, which is considerable.

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Outside combat their abilities can range from useless to absolutely necessary depending on if and how a designer makes checks for their skills.

As compared to the skills that, for example, Rangers seem to have outside of combat?  Or Warriors?
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Offline PetrusOctavianus

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Re: What is the thief saving throw bug, exactly?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2015, 03:26:16 AM »
Single class Thieves are the most useless class IMO, but I love Fighter/Thieves. The one in my Treasures of the Savage Frontier party, Hasted and Enlarged, killed the "unkillable" Vaalgamon with four backstabs.
The Drow Lord in Curse of the Azure Bonds is also near immune to any other attacks.

Offline Sailent

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Re: What is the thief saving throw bug, exactly?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2015, 02:09:03 PM »
Give your thief invisibility to avoid attacks of opportunity! Believe me you'll love it!