Poll

Whether playing CRPGs or pencil and paper, which gaming system do you prefer?

AD&D (1st Ed)
2 (11.1%)
2E D&D
12 (66.7%)
3E D&D
0 (0%)
3.5E D&D
1 (5.6%)
4E D&D
0 (0%)
Pathfinder
2 (11.1%)
None of the above (please clarify)
1 (5.6%)

Total Members Voted: 18

Author Topic: Which (D&D) gaming system do you prefer  (Read 3289 times)

Offline Bart Jackson

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Which (D&D) gaming system do you prefer
« on: June 29, 2013, 11:11:58 AM »
I'm curious to know which system people play.  I have been surprised lately that some of my friends still play 1st Ed.

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Which (D&D) gaming system do you prefer
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2013, 01:20:14 PM »
These days, I run a campaign in Pathfinder.  That's what I play. 

What I *want* to play is 1st/2nd Edition or Basic, but it's hard to get these new-fangled players to accept that an older version of D&D might be superior to something new.  Luckily, one guy in the group has played 2nd Edition, and he has been pushing hard for me to run a 2nd Edition campaign after this one is over...so we'll see what happens.

At the moment, I voted for Pathfinder though...because until the new version of D&D comes out, it's my preferred system of the modern systems.
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Offline Bart Jackson

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Re: Which (D&D) gaming system do you prefer
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2013, 04:18:11 PM »
AD&D is superior in some ways to the others, but combat (AC) is a pain if you do it by the book.  3E and 3.5E nerfed wizards and boosted fighter types.  I don't remember much about 2E because I didn't play if long (was out of gaming for a few years there).  4E is  ???

I have not read much about 5E.  What have they changed?

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Which (D&D) gaming system do you prefer
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2013, 05:24:55 AM »
How is AC a pain?
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Offline Olivier Leroux

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Re: Which (D&D) gaming system do you prefer
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2013, 06:12:47 AM »
None of the above: I don't play pen and paper anymore, but back in the days the only system I got to try was 2nd ed., so I'm biased, of course. In CRPGs I've become accustomed to 3 or 3.5, especially thanks to NWN, but I also adapt to older editions in FRUA or the Infinity games. I can't really say which one of the available options I'd prefer, firstly because I don't know all of them good enough to compare, secondly because it always depends on circumstances. For a CRPG some systems might be more suitable than others, or regardless of which system is used, some games implement them better than others, so if a game uses a great system but makes bad use of its options, I wouldn't prefer that to a weaker system better implemented.

Offline Nol Drek

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Re: Which (D&D) gaming system do you prefer
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2013, 11:20:36 AM »
How is AC a pain?

Because when you roll to hit, you have to look up your roll and the monsters AC in a table.

I think it was 3E which fixed this so that if a monster has an AC of 14 then you need to roll a 14 or higher to hit.
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Offline bravedogbfg

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Re: Which (D&D) gaming system do you prefer
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2013, 02:22:31 PM »
How is AC a pain?

Because when you roll to hit, you have to look up your roll and the monsters AC in a table.

I think it was 3E which fixed this so that if a monster has an AC of 14 then you need to roll a 14 or higher to hit.

I didn't think it was that bad.  You always knew your THAC0 - add the monster's AC to the roll, higher than THAC0 = hit.

3E changed it around so instead of adding the monster's AC to the roll, you add your to hit bonus to the roll and check against the monster AC.  It is really the same thing

Offline Ray

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Re: Which (D&D) gaming system do you prefer
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2013, 02:26:24 PM »

I think that the problem is the 1E "combat matrices" in the old DMG.  If you used them with regularity, it was pretty easy to memorize them, but if you only played once every couple weeks, for a few hours at a time--They weren't nearly as easy to get your brain around as THAC0 or BAB.

I miss them due to nostalgia, but I have to admit that combat has gotten easier with 2E and then 3E. 

My group still uses THAC0, though.  Maybe the only P&P group left that still does...   ;)

Offline nologgie

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Re: Which (D&D) gaming system do you prefer
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2013, 02:33:50 PM »
My group still uses THAC0, though.  Maybe the only P&P group left that still does...   ;)

I doubt it.   ;)
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Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Which (D&D) gaming system do you prefer
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2013, 10:10:26 PM »
Who needed combat tables?  Just subtract the AC from the THACO

THAC0 12 versus AC 6, for example. 12 - 6 = 6 or better to hit.  Or versus AC -5, as an example: 12 - -5 = 17 or better to hit.

Add appropriate bonuses to the roll (STR bonus, magical bonus, etc), just like 3rd Edition.

Here's the mind-blowing part:  The game still uses the same mechanic, they just changed the math.

To convert 2nd Edition to 3rd Edition, just subtract 20 from the numbers:

THACO 12 =  20 - 12 = 8 (Base Attack Bonus in 3rd Edition +8)
AC 6 = 20 - 6 = 14 (3rd Edition AC of 14)

To hit a 3rd Edition AC of 14 with a +8 attack bonus, you need a 6...same as to hit an AC 6 with a 12 THAC0 in 1st or 2nd Edition.  Go ahead and try the math out on any combination and see.
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Offline Ray

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Re: Which (D&D) gaming system do you prefer
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2013, 10:38:51 PM »

Actually, first edition did use combat tables--and I LOVED them!  Dig out your old 1E DMG and check pages 74 and 75 (page numbers that I still remember even though I haven't used them since 1989). 

You could still employ the THAC0 concept to an extent--though at some point the number needed to hit went below zero, and the number to hit never went above 20, so there were some differences.  Still, because of the layout, until somebody pointed that out that the numbers could be used as a THAC0 (which occurred around 2E for most of my friends), it looked like you needed to use those puppies if you were going to play AD&D!

Before 2E came out, I never heard anyone say, "It's simple, just calculate what you need to hit AC 0 and then subtract what you rolled."

It was always, "Find out what you need to hit the monster's Armor Class using the DMG.  Then roll the die and add in all your modifiers, like Strength, Weapon Specialization, and Magic.  If the modified number is higher than the number on the table, then you hit!"  Everyone I knew played it that way until 2E came out, and that included the few conventions that I attended.


Offline Milos Gulan

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Re: Which (D&D) gaming system do you prefer
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2013, 06:22:38 AM »
Actualy 2e thac0 is a bit more complicated then in 3e :) http://www.ancientscrossroads.com/adnd_tools/thac0_chart.htm but 2e is still the best for me, although togehter with 1e :) thats how i would vote if there was an option for that. Also 1e is really good because of its simplicity and i really have a good time with it lately.

Anyway now i am trying to run 2e-1e FR campaign on roll20 and thats why i am a bit busy and :) it feels like good old days :D though i am still learning to GM online.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 06:24:23 AM by Rainbower »

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Which (D&D) gaming system do you prefer
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2013, 07:22:03 AM »
Actualy 2e thac0 is a bit more complicated then in 3e :) http://www.ancientscrossroads.com/adnd_tools/thac0_chart.htm

It really isn't.  I just explained this.  Subtract the AC. (Just remember that when subtracting a negative number from a positive one, you are actually adding according to the way math works).

Using this table, you can see that this is true.  It actually proves what I said.  Check anywhere on the chart and see if you can prove me wrong.

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Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Which (D&D) gaming system do you prefer
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2013, 07:37:16 AM »
Actually, first edition did use combat tables--and I LOVED them!  Dig out your old 1E DMG and check pages 74 and 75 (page numbers that I still remember even though I haven't used them since 1989). 

1st Edition also used THAC0.  Dig out your old 1E DMG and check pages 195 to 215.  You will see that monsters are listed with "To Hit A.C. 0" stats which eventually evolved into THAC0.  DMs who used these monster lists and employed this technique soon adopted it to help players figure their AC faster using the technique listed above (subtract the AC to get the target number, roll the die and add your modifiers, if you roll equal to or greater than the target number then you hit).

After a while, it became fairly simple to do.

I realize not everyone figured this out, so I have sympathy for those of you who used the combat tables.  We only referenced them when a character went up in level to see if the character's "To Hit A.C. 0" changed.

EDIT:
Also forgot to mention that many old 1st Edition modules used THAC0 as well.  Some as early as 1983 or 1984.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 07:41:15 AM by ProphetSword »
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Offline Ray

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Re: Which (D&D) gaming system do you prefer
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2013, 07:53:24 AM »

Odd that I never noticed any of that, but there it is.