Author Topic: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...  (Read 10473 times)

Offline Uatu

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2013, 08:33:17 PM »
Wuxiapian doesn't really mean "flying swordsman movies"...  it just happens that most wuxia tend to have swords and fly around a lot :D  (I hope Samuel Jackson pronounces it correctly, i.e. NOT "Woo-zya")

I don't really like the word hui in particular, because its primary meaning is "meeting" - it doesn't really make sense, I think.

I think that "wuyi" means "witch doctor"...  (Also, the "wu" in wuyi (巫) is different from the "wu" in wuxia (武) (but the same as the "wu" in wuren)).

Anyway, just some little comments ;D  I am not Chinese, but I can speak/read it alright...  certainly not a native, though.
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Offline hans

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2013, 10:57:15 AM »
Wuxiapian doesn't really mean "flying swordsman movies"...  it just happens that most wuxia tend to have swords and fly around a lot :D  (I hope Samuel Jackson pronounces it correctly, i.e. NOT "Woo-zya")

I don't really like the word hui in particular, because its primary meaning is "meeting" - it doesn't really make sense, I think.

I think that "wuyi" means "witch doctor"...  (Also, the "wu" in wuyi (巫) is different from the "wu" in wuxia (武) (but the same as the "wu" in wuren))...
 

There are literal translations and then there are translations that are looser, in attempting to convey implications and inferences culturally associated with a word.  Wuxia pian is really sometimes translated as "flying swordsman movies."  This is probably to differentiate them from gung-fu pian "kung fu movies" (like Bruce Lee's films, with actual, down-to-earth fighting techniques) or guo shu pian "neo-hero movies" which sorta fall halfway between the other two.

Not every wuxia film or story has a flying swordsman, however.  (I write this not for Uatu's benefit, as he clearly understands these references, but for other folks who might follow this thread.)  A xia protagonist may prefer a spear or daggers, for example, and only bend the laws of physics rather than outright break them.

I like "martial hero" as a strict translation of wuxia.  Xia is very often translated as "knight" which conveys some elements of the word better, but also incourages preconceptions in the Western mind that are incorrect.  A xia may be like a medieval knight in some respects but not in others.  The rules of Chinese chivalry can be different from those followed by King Arthur's knights. 

The books say wuxia is properly pronounced "woo-seeyah" (emphasis on the "ah").  Samuel L. Jackson, as narrator for the documentary The Art of Action: Martial Arts in the Movies (which should more correctly be subtitled "Chinese Martial Arts in the Movies"), says it more like "woo-shah."  (It's one of the best documentaries on that subject, btw, and I recommend it.)   

As for "hui," I'll do some more thinkun'.   :-\

Offline hans

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2013, 02:36:36 PM »
On Wuyi, the below is an excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_(shaman):

Wu-shamans as healers

The belief that demonic possession caused disease and sickness is well documented in many cultures, including ancient China. The early practitioners of Chinese medicine historically changed from wu 巫 "spirit-mediums; shamans" who used divination, exorcism, and prayer to yi 毉 or 醫 "doctors; physicians" who used herbal medicine, moxibustion, and acupuncture.

As mentioned above, wu 巫 "shaman" was depicted in the ancient 毉 variant character for yi 醫 "healer; doctor". This archaic yi 毉, writes Carr (1992:117), "ideographically depicted a shaman-doctor in the act of exorcistical healing with (矢 'arrows' in) a 医 'quiver', a 殳 'hand holding a lance', and a wu 巫 'shaman'." Unschuld believes this 毉 character depicts the type of wu practitioner described in the Liji.

Several times a year, and also during certain special occasions, such as the funeral of a prince, hordes of exorcists would race shrieking through the city streets, enter the courtyards and homes, thrusting their spears into the air, in an attempt to expel the evil creatures. Prisoners were dismembered outside all gates to the city, to serve both as a deterrent to the demons and as an indication of their fate should they be captured. (1985:37)

Replacing the exorcistical 巫 "shaman" in 毉 with medicinal 酒 "wine" in yi 醫 "healer; doctor" signified, writes Schiffeler (1976:27), "the practice of medicine was not any longer confined to the incantations of the wu, but that it had been taken over (from an official standpoint) by the "priest-physicians," who administered elixirs or wines as treatments for their patients."

Wu and yi are compounded in the word wuyi 巫醫 "shaman-doctor; shamans and doctors", translated "exorcising physician" (De Groot 1910), "sorcerer-physician" (Schiffeler 1976), or "physician-shaman" (Mainfort 2004). Confucius quotes a "Southern Saying" that a good wuyi must have heng 恆 "constancy; ancient tradition; continuation; perseverance; regularity; proper name (e.g., Yijing Hexagram 32)". The (ca. 5th century BCE) Lunyu "Confucian Analects" and the (ca. 1st century BCE) Liji "Record of Rites" give different versions of the Southern Saying.

Offline hans

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2013, 02:53:42 PM »
Back to Hui: 

I read from a number of sources, but it is probably this short wiki article that I figured gave me the most go-ahead to use Hui: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_(secret_society)  

Naturally, you can't believe everything you read in a wiki. 

However, from other sources I found that Hui was used in compound names for some olden-day, Chinese secret societies like the Tiandihui (the Heaven and Earth Society), an historical group that is featured in many wuxia classics. 

Using Hui as a class name, I thought, would then be rather the same as using Yakuza...   ??? 

Addendum: 

What if I made a compound using Wu (for "martial") with Hui?  Wu-Hui?  Would that make people think of Homer Simpson too much...?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 02:56:49 PM by hans »

Offline nologgie

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2013, 03:37:40 PM »
Quote from: hans
Wu-Hui?  Would that make people think of Homer Simpson too much...?

Never.
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Offline Nol Drek

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2013, 08:38:17 PM »
Using Hui as a class name, I thought, would then be rather the same as using Yakuza...   ??? 

I like Hui as as a class name. Any Hui that I create will be members of the D Dāo Hu (big sword society).
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Offline Uatu

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2013, 01:43:04 AM »
Weeeell...  "Hui" really just means "meet," and since Chinese doesn't really have nouns and verbs, it also can mean "meeting" as a result.

So, of course any organization or meeting will have "hui" as a suffix.  "Hui" by itself will not mean a member of a meeting - that would be "huiyuan" (organization member) but it does not have a "dark" connotation at all (standard word).

The other problem with using "Hui" is that it also refers to a minority group in China, the Chinese Moslems, who often insist that they are descended from Moslems from the west, but today for the most part just look like Han Chinese.  (I have seen "Huihui" as a nickname, too, I think.)  Actually, some kung fu comes from the Hui (such as Chaquan, Xinyiliuhequan, etc.).
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Offline Nol Drek

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2013, 08:27:50 AM »
Weeeell...  "Hui" really just means "meet," and since Chinese doesn't really have nouns and verbs, it also can mean "meeting" as a result.

When I use the term "D Dāo Hu", I will know that I am referring to a member of the Great Sword Society.

If someone else interprets it to mean a Huz person who uses a D Dāo, that's fine with me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Dao
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Offline hans

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2013, 10:03:10 AM »
...So, of course any organization or meeting will have "hui" as a suffix.  "Hui" by itself will not mean a member of a meeting - that would be "huiyuan" (organization member) but it does not have a "dark" connotation at all (standard word).

The other problem with using "Hui" is that it also refers to a minority group in China, the Chinese Moslems, who often insist that they are descended from Moslems from the west, but today for the most part just look like Han Chinese.  (I have seen "Huihui" as a nickname, too, I think.)  Actually, some kung fu comes from the Hui (such as Chaquan, Xinyiliuhequan, etc.).
 

Huiyuan has one too many letters to replace Yakuza (dang it).  Huizu would fit, but if I were to use that it might make me want to reconsider using Zu as a replacement for Bushi.   :P 

I'm fine with no negative connotations, as many secret societies in the Jiang-Hu or Wulin world were supposed to be benevolent and just (like the aforementioned Heaven and Earth Society). 

I wouldn't want it to be confused with ethnicity.  Using Romanized words, especially without the little this-way-that-way slashes over certain letters (which have meaning only to experts and are impossible to replacate within UA's engine), does have the drawback that so many words have a multitude of possible interpretations.   :-[

Offline Uatu

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2013, 01:41:08 AM »
(Don't use huizu - that one refers to the Chinese minority.)  Also, I just used huiyuan as an example - it is a poor choice as a class name (and doesn't sound cool at all, sounds like "group member" or something like that).

Also, it seems that jianghu sometimes is used with a negative connotation - I am a bit confused by the word these days, actually.  Maybe it is more neutral than good/evil.

The difficult thing about Chinese legends is that the heroes tended to be all-in-one characters - i.e. excellent fighting and weapon skills, agile skills like running up walls or leaping from roof to roof, and mystical powers (healing, energy bolts, astral travel, telepathy, etc.)...  In essence for AD&D that means that heroes would be something like fighters, clerics, thieves, and magic-users at the same time - at best you might end up with a monk-like character, but without any weapon restrictions, and with added mystical skills.

In actuality, monks and ascetics were able to use a wide range of weapons (swords, spears, etc.) - the only restrictions I might give them would be maybe bows and crossbows (or other mechanical weapons)...
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Offline steve_mcdee

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2013, 05:34:00 AM »
The tones (ie, the lines above the letters, similar to accents) in pinyin are, I believe indicative of pronunciation. They reflect different characters too. So, not a mere technicality... You could actually replicate them (or some, at least) using fontedit. You would just need to make sure you replace letters or symbols that you are certain you won't use in the game... Not too easy. In all the circumstances, I think you can be forgiven for ignoring them.

Offline hans

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2013, 06:38:35 PM »
...The difficult thing about Chinese legends is that the heroes tended to be all-in-one characters - i.e. excellent fighting and weapon skills, agile skills like running up walls or leaping from roof to roof, and mystical powers (healing, energy bolts, astral travel, telepathy, etc.)...  In essence for AD&D that means that heroes would be something like fighters, clerics, thieves, and magic-users at the same time - at best you might end up with a monk-like character, but without any weapon restrictions, and with added mystical skills...
 

One of the advantages I see in translating OAUA into more of a Chinese milieu, rather than hacking standard UA, is access to the Special Ability event (to quote from the OAUA docs):
Special Ability
The active character is given a new Special Ability or has one removed.  Level and duration of the ability can be adjusted; a duration of 0 is permanent. 

I can imagine this being used to give individual PCs particular SpecAbs to reflect certain legendary Martial Art styles or abilities.  For example, I could give a player the chance to have one of his PCs begin to learn the "iron shirt" or "golden bell" style.  This style would let a fighter absorb blows with less injury at low levels and become totally immune to weapons when mastered (such goes the myth).  So, I could give the PC "Half Damage from Weapons" after entering their training, and later in the game take that SpecAb and give them "Immune All Weapons" instead. 

Moreover, by using SpecAbs as other event triggers, such esoteric martial arts could be intricately woven into a storyline, involving things like feuds between martial art schools, special obligations to masters, maps to secret manuals, etc., etc., all continually referencing a particular PC (easily identified by their SpecAb).

Imaginative designers might come up with even more interesting slants on their use, like maybe for a single-PC mod, letting a character learn several different special maneuvers and letting them choose which they'd like to use in an upcoming fight by shuffling SpecAbs in and out just before a Combat. 

If I can get the renames done satisfactorily without wrecking the OAUA Ckit, my first goal will be to write up a short mod to release it with.  As even a small hans mod can take me forever to finish, however, no telling how soon such a release would take place...   :-[
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 06:43:37 PM by hans »

Offline hans

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2013, 02:11:39 PM »
While Race & Class replacements may not be fully set, yet, I'm starting to think about item replacements.  Here's a txvocab list produced from OAUA by Merric's MBitems:   

1 Battle Axe
2 Hand Axe
3 Club
4 Dagger
5 Dart
6 War Fan
7 Needle
8 Tetsubo
9 Kusari-gama
10 Kama
11 Lajatang
12 Bolt
13 Sai
14 Spear
15 Bo
16 Ninja-to
17 Broad Sword
18 Katana
19 Wakizashi
20 Two-Handed Sword
21 Naginata
22 Daikyu
23 Shuriken
24 Long Bow
25 Short Bow
26 Fine
27 Light Crossbow
28 Sling
29 Parang
30 Arrow
31 Leather
32 Brigandine
33 Scale
34 Chain
35 Ashigaru
36 Great
37 Shield
38 SHUKENJA
39 Scroll
40 Wu-Jen
41 Kabuto
42 Belt
43 Robe
44 Mantle
45 Sandals
46 Pearl
47 of the
48 Armor
49 Of Prot
50 Bracers
51 Bloodstone
52 Elixir
53 Potion
54 Youth
55 Ruby
56 Accuracy
57 Dragon Breath
58 Dancing Wind
59 Mask
60 Butterfly Sword
61 Cord
62 True Sight
63 Sapphire
64 Emerald
65 Flame
66 Hornet's Nest
67 Fire Resistance
68 Stone
69 Good Fortune
70 Nunchaku
71 Halberd
72 Kote
73 Talisman
74 Health
75 , Cursed
76 Blessed
77 Bundle of
78 Bear's Strength
79 Venom
80 Iron Fist
81 Mirror
82 Disease
83 Dragon
84 Slaying
85 Sharpness
86 cold resistance
87 Diamond
88 Heaven's Thunder
89 Padded
90 of
91 Blade
92 Quickness
93 Tsunami
94 Extra
95 Healing
96 Control
97 Fear
98 Spirit Warrior
99 from Spirits
100 1 Spell
101 2 Spells
102 3 Spells
103 Restoration
104 Chameleon
105 Diamond Ki
106 Eel
107 AC 6
108 AC 4
109 AC 3
110 AC 2
111 +1
112 +2
113 +3
114 +4
115 Hand
116 -1
117 -2
118 -3
119 Heaven's Grace
120 Betrayal
121 Enchanted
122 Gem
123 Jewelry
124 Etherealness
125 Foolishness

As a general rule, I would like to keep English ones unchanged, but might make exceptions, like for Hand Axe and Battle Axe (Fu Axe? Yue Axe? Ge Axe?).  I'll post more of my own thoughts on replacements soon.

Offline Nol Drek

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2013, 12:28:00 PM »
When Brian O'Donnell created the CKIT.EXE hack for OAUA, he didn't need as many characters for class names as FRUA uses. As a result, there is a lot of unused text space that is available for a Chinese version of OAUA.

The total number of characters for class names and race names is 221 including the 0's which must be between one string and the next. There are 112 characters that are not used for anything which were the old multi-class strings.

We can make class names longer than the ones used in OAUA, as long as hans comes up with a final list of race/class names which does not exceed the 221 character count.

"Hui" could be replaced with "Society Member" and "Wuxian" could be replaced with "Flying Swordsman". The only restriction is the 18 character limit as a single string can't be longer than "Cleric/Fighter/M-U".

Here are the decimal offsets for the race/class strings in OAUA. The pointers to these strings are in the normal place and found by subtracting 544864 in the usual manner.

(39 characters)
573922 Korobokuru
573933 Hengeyokai
573944 Spirit Folk
573956 HUMAN

(70 characters)
573974 SHUKENJA
573983 MONK
573988 BUSHI
573994 SAMURAI
574002 BARBARIAN
574012 WU JEN
574019 YAKUZA
574026 KENSAI
574033 NINJA
574039 SOHEI

(112 unused characters)
574066 CLERIC/RANGER ... MAGIC-USER/THIEF
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Offline hans

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2013, 03:55:20 PM »
Many thanks, Nol!  That does give more options.  At the moment, my tentative list of Race & Classes looks like this:

573922 Korobokuru    ---> Xiao'Airen  (dwarf race in Chinese folklore)
573933 Hengeyokai    ---> Dongwujing  ("animal + supernatural being")
573944 Spirit Folk       ---> no change
573956 HUMAN           ---> no change

573974 SHUKENJA      ---> Fangshi ("method master" alchemist/diviner)
573983 MONK             ---> no change
573988 BUSHI            ---> Zu (soldier)
573994 SAMURAI        ---> Wuxia (on this change, my mind is set)
574002 BARBARIAN     ---> no change
574012 WU JEN          ---> no change
574019 YAKUZA          ---> Hui (admittedly weak for Secret Society Member)
574026 KENSAI          ---> Shi (scholar)
574033 NINJA             ---> Ci'ke (assassin)
574039 SOHEI            ---> Wuyi ("shaman + doctor")

Learning that I'm not as limited for space as I thought, I'm open to longer suggestions.  (I'm only really locked in on Wuxia.) 

Instead of your "Society Member" suggestion, Nol, what about "Sect Member" (with apologies to Ben Jockisch), or something like that, so players don't take it as just meaning "a productive member of society"...?