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91
Dungeon Craft - Troubleshooting / Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Last post by Paul R. Stevens on October 04, 2017, 07:42:19 PM »
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I have accidentally tapped a key that moved the PC too far, or not in the intended direction

I suppose that chaos on the battlefield invites such mistakes.  I can
only suggest that you participate in further training classes so that
you can minimize your errors when they can be deadly.

But more to the point.........I think anything we do is going to
be extremely minimal.  We might be able to return a combatant
to his original cell.  Unless, during his travels he has caused
another combatant to occupy his cell.  (Ye olde teleport defense,
for example.)  But I don't think we will be able to undo any
side-effects of his movement.  We would have to checkpoint the
entire game!
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Dungeon Craft - Troubleshooting / Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Last post by Mechanaut on October 04, 2017, 06:49:24 PM »
I guess what I'm saying is that it would be easy enough to exploit.  If you risked the move, but ended up having a character wounded, you could just roll it back.  However, that defeats the purpose of having taken the risk in the first place.
I don't see it as a risk. AFAIK, any hostile NPC that approaches, (but does not reach) the PCs... end their turn with Guard; unless it's not an option.  So you cannot use this to test if the opponent is guarding before closing on them. Undoing a move is just that. Many, many times I have accidentally tapped a key that moved the PC too far, or not in the intended direction; especially when playing on laptops.  The undo feature allows one to correct mistakes.

So long as the NPC re-arms their guard attack after an undo, I don't see how it could be exploitive to undo the accidental damage from that attack. Undoing a move is effectively having it never have happen, so retaining the injury from something that never happened, always seemed kind of bizarre to me.

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What is to stop a player from doing this continuously until the monster misses or the damage is less?
I mentioned this in the post above. If allowed, that would be an exploit; but if the attack repeats (exactly) during that move... if they had hit them before, they'd hit them again.

**One plausible exploit of this is that by being able to see the damage, they can decide whether or not to keep it—or undo; not cool. That would let them choose (after triggering the Guard attack) to attack with sufficient remaining hitpoints—or to retreat (with undo, as though it never happened) if they don't have enough to survive the melee.

That could be the reason that the games don't undo the damage. (Was this your point as well?)
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Dungeon Craft - Troubleshooting / Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Last post by ProphetSword on October 04, 2017, 06:21:25 PM »
I guess what I'm saying is that it would be easy enough to exploit.  If you risked the move, but ended up having a character wounded, you could just roll it back.  However, that defeats the purpose of having taken the risk in the first place.

What is to stop a player from doing this continuously until the monster misses or the damage is less? 
94
Dungeon Craft - Troubleshooting / Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Last post by Mechanaut on October 04, 2017, 06:15:13 PM »
I would not mind if undoing the move negated AOO attack damage, and restored the guard attack to the NPC.

Wouldn't that destroy some of the danger of tactical movement?

For example:  I move somewhere and provoke an AOO, only to have my character reduced to 1 HP.  Oops, let me back that up...
I don't think it will... not if the undone damage, accompanies a re-arming of the NPCs guard action... It would happen again if tried again.

As I understand it, in the games, the undo option is only valid for an uncommitted move. If a PC can move 12 steps, then they can move up to 12 steps and undo... but if they move 7 steps and commit, they can not then move the remaining 4 steps with an undo that places then further back than step 7.


*Perhaps you mean that the player might repeat the action until the NPC misses onon their attack?  That would indeed be an exploit if allowed, but I think (or would hope) that it might be trivial to repeat the same attack roll for that action every time during that turn.


**I just tested Death Knights of Krynn, and in that game, the guard attack doesn't happen again, after an undo—but its damage is never undone, so it wouldn't have to.  It does seem exploitable if it then doesn't happen to other NPCs that approach on their turn. (I didn't check for that)
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Dungeon Craft - Troubleshooting / Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Last post by Mechanaut on October 04, 2017, 05:56:00 PM »
I would not mind if undoing the move negated AOO attack damage, and restored the guard attack to the NPC.

Wouldn't that destroy some of the danger of tactical movement?

For example:  I move somewhere and provoke an AOO, only to have my character reduced to 1 HP.  Oops, let me back that up...
I don't think it will... not if the undone damage, accompanies a re-arming of the NPCs AOO action... It would happen again if tried again.

As I understand it, in the games, the undo option is only valid for an uncommitted move. If a PC can move 12 steps, then they can move up to 12 steps and undo... but if they move 7 steps and commit, they can not then move the remaining 4 steps with an undo that places then further back than step 7.


*Perhaps you mean that the player might repeat the action until the NPC misses onon their attack?  That would indeed be an exploit if allowed, but I think (or would hope) that it might be trivial to repeat the same attack roll for that action every time during that turn.


**I just tested Death Knights of Krynn, and in that game, the guard attack doesn't happen again, after an undo—but its damange is never undone, so it wouldn't have to.  It does seem exploitable if it then doesn't happen to other NPCs that approach on their turn. (I didn't check for that)
96
Dungeon Craft - Troubleshooting / Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Last post by manikus on October 04, 2017, 03:57:06 PM »
Attacks of Opportunity are not actual attacks. Nor are guarding attacks. They are scripted damage that we have made to look like an attack.

If these aren't actual attacks, is there a chance to miss?

There is nothing in my scripts for AoO or Guarding attacks to measure thac0 versus AC, so that bit is still hard-coded. I see AoO failing... There is a DoesAttackSucceed script that iworks with attacks, but I don't think this is in play for Free/Guarding attacks.
97
Dungeon Craft - Troubleshooting / Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Last post by ProphetSword on October 04, 2017, 03:48:15 PM »
I would not mind if undoing the move negated AOO attack damage, and restored the guard attack to the NPC.

Wouldn't that destroy some of the danger of tactical movement?

For example:  I move somewhere and provoke an AOO, only to have my character reduced to 1 HP.  Oops, let me back that up...

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Dungeon Craft - Troubleshooting / Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Last post by ProphetSword on October 04, 2017, 03:46:12 PM »
Attacks of Opportunity are not actual attacks. Nor are guarding attacks. They are scripted damage that we have made to look like an attack.

If these aren't actual attacks, is there a chance to miss?
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Dungeon Craft - Troubleshooting / Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Last post by manikus on October 04, 2017, 03:04:56 PM »
That would fix the problem for the time being.  It would stop the trouble I observed, and would prevent the player from ending up in an unwinnable situation.

That said, this might be a good problem to put a pin in for later.  The current way attacks of opportunity work is a little different from how a player, or module creator, would expect them to work at first glance.  Sometimes this is harmless, such as a character dying one square away from where one would expect them to die.  Sometimes it has the potential to break the game, such as in this example. 
i don't want to fix this issue twice if once will suffice.
I'll make a mini-mod so that Paul and I can discuss this. :D

Question:

Your question suggests that attacks of opportunity can be differentiated from normal attacks, and can be used to trigger scripts separate from normal attacks.  Could one write a script that tracks where a target is moving and moves the target back to the square they last occupied?  Could one then trigger this script if the "IsHugged" condition is applied due to an attack of opportunity?  Not only would this eliminate the problem, but it would also add a tool to the module creator's toolbox.  For instance, it could be used to create a creature that, when guarding, pushes characters that try to engage in melee away, forcing characters to either engage it at range or have it engage them first.
Attacks of Opportunity are not actuall attacks. Nor are guarding attacks. They are scripted damage that we have made to look like an attack.
As for scripts that move combatants around...I have been thinking about this for a while but have not actually messed areound iwth it yet (I want to create items or spells that have knockback). I will look into this and let y'all know, but this is a separate issue and would be a band-aid to fix the AoO IsHugged issue.

Is it acceptable to you folk that the solution to this problem is that an attack of opportunity can not result in a "IsHugged" outcome?

Maybe. What about an attack of opportunity that results in an "IsParalyzed", "IsEngulfed", or "IsHeld" outcome?
It could be for IsParalyzed and IsHeld that the combatants momentum carried them into the next cell, and for IsEngulfed, that the engulfing took just lone enough....no that doesn't work either. ;)

I am just joking about the rationalizations. I can do the same thing for these other issues as I can for IsHugged. So, I will make that mini-mod so Paul and I can work on this.

Could one write a script that tracks where a target is moving and moves the target back to the square they last occupied? 
If so, I would like it if DungeonCraft implemented the same behavior of the ESC key in the game combat. The IBM versions of the Gold Box Games allowed the moving PC to expend their entire range—and optionally (if they chose) UNDO that entire movement, and revert to where the PC was at the start of their turn.

This allows the player to change their mind on the path their PC takes from point A to point B during combat.
So, you only want UNDO if we can script a way to move combatants? ;)
I assume you mean that you would like to request UNDO and hope that is doable. When this was brought up before, both Paul and I said, "You can UNDO moves in FRUA?" This was news to us, and a good reason why no one had ever coded it into the program.
I suspect this will take quite some convincing, but I could be wrong. We'll find out when this works it way up the Feature Request list.

**Notably: this does not undo and attack-of-opportunity damage they may have taken that turn before they canceled the move.  However, this may have been an engine limitation... It seems like it might be exploitable to use up the enemy's single Guard attack with one PC, so that another PC might pass them unharmed.

I would not mind if undoing the move negated AOO attack damage, and restored the guard attack to the NPC.
We will worry about UNDO when we get to that bridge...
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General Discussion / Re: Inspirations: Movies, Music, Websites etc.
« Last post by hans on October 04, 2017, 01:40:26 PM »
Halloween mood: an animated short, "Tainted Goods"...
(Language warning: beware, does include a quick F-bomb)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adi9Ijhvn1Y
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