Author Topic: Preview: Helmetlands  (Read 32551 times)

Offline manikus

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Re: Preview: Helmetlands
« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2010, 04:37:40 PM »
The icons are the same for all resolutions...but the area view art will change, right? Wrong. The area view art is the same for all resolutions as well. :)

Offline Dinonykos

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Re: Preview: Helmetlands
« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2010, 05:04:49 PM »
The area view art is the same for all resolutions as well. :)

Hmm... maybe it would make sense to change the area view art in higher resolution... But yes, it seems not to appear in the config-file... Maybe something to think about for post-DC-1.0 changes...
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Offline manikus

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Re: Preview: Helmetlands
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2010, 05:16:18 PM »
The area view art is the same for all resolutions as well. :)

Hmm... maybe it would make sense to change the area view art in higher resolution... But yes, it seems not to appear in the config-file... Maybe something to think about for post-DC-1.0 changes...

You can change it right now, it's a graphic file - areaviewart.png or overart.png or mapart.png - whichever one has little wall chunks. :) Oh, and it actually is listed in the config file. But I realize you mean changing the resolution of the area view, which is not implemented, as until this moment no one has even publicly talked about this. :)

Offline Dinonykos

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Re: Preview: Helmetlands
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2010, 05:29:01 PM »
But I realize you mean changing the resolution of the area view, which is not implemented, as until this moment no one has even publicly talked about this. :)

As often, I was not very precise... Indeed, I meant changing the resolution. Thus, with 1076 px width, the tiles in the area view should maybe have a size of 32x32 px instead of 16x16.

What happens with overland maps in the higher resolution? I assume the size of the squares remains the same?
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Offline manikus

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Re: Preview: Helmetlands
« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2010, 02:41:58 PM »
But I realize you mean changing the resolution of the area view, which is not implemented, as until this moment no one has even publicly talked about this. :)

As often, I was not very precise... Indeed, I meant changing the resolution. Thus, with 1076 px width, the tiles in the area view should maybe have a size of 32x32 px instead of 16x16.

What happens with overland maps in the higher resolution? I assume the size of the squares remains the same?
Yes. The map squares are still 16x16. I think we can change that for the graphics, but not for the way DC places events and such.

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Re: Preview: Helmetlands
« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2010, 08:15:37 AM »
I have thought the overland map thing over and now I think that the overland map may also look like this:



The story behind is that the martens - when traveling through the "Helmetlands" - look onto their portable navigation computer... :D (Of course, the final thing will be shaded and show more "decorations".)

The navigation computer will also be a special item, and probably allow to switch between different views (political vs geographical, maybe also geological) when used...
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 08:18:19 AM by Dinonykos »
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Offline Ben J

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Re: Preview: Helmetlands
« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2010, 08:17:55 AM »

You could also program the entire overland in 3D view.  ;D
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Re: Preview: Helmetlands
« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2010, 08:31:16 AM »

You could also program the entire overland in 3D view.  ;D
This is what I planned earlier, and I even had several dozens of "overland 3D levels" prepared, however I realized (last not least when playing the sect) that the overland maps are a reasonable tool to "accelerate the story progress".
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Offline Ben J

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Re: Preview: Helmetlands
« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2010, 08:51:51 AM »
This is what I planned earlier, and I even had several dozens of "overland 3D levels" prepared, however I realized (last not least when playing the sect) that the overland maps are a reasonable tool to "accelerate the story progress".

You can already spend a considerable amount of time exploring the woods in "Friedrich's Revenge", so I guess that's true.

I tried to design a 3D-overland with FRUA once, and it failed due to the limitations in space (the overland needed several maps just to get you from city 1 to city 2) and in scenery (although with Olivier's TLB-collection now available, the 3D environment could probably be a lot more visually interesting than what the standard FRUA provides).
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Offline Dinonykos

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Re: Preview: Helmetlands
« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2010, 10:28:00 AM »
I tried to design a 3D-overland with FRUA once, and it failed due to the limitations in space (the overland needed several maps just to get you from city 1 to city 2) and in scenery (although with Olivier's TLB-collection now available, the 3D environment could probably be a lot more visually interesting than what the standard FRUA provides).

In the Might and Magic games, they used a strange approach: overland and cities used the same type of 3D view (objects and monster's had identical sizes in both areas), however, one city only occupied one square in the overland 3D view. In other words, e.g. a goblin was normal size inside of the cities, but high as a hill outside...

I think the approach with overland traveling in the 3D view makes sense in a small world, but for example in "The Sect", it would be crazy... :)
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Offline manikus

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Re: Preview: Helmetlands
« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2010, 02:54:48 PM »
I like the map. :) That's a cool idea, one that I'm handling similarly for th "sci-fi" design on the backburner. :)

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Re: Preview: Helmetlands
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2010, 03:48:35 AM »
I like the map. :) That's a cool idea, one that I'm handling similarly for th "sci-fi" design on the backburner. :)
I have thought long about doing the map itself with black outlines, since - as pointed out by some of you guys - it would look very consistent with the 3d view and the pics. However, it is also a matter of scale: If one square in the area view represents around 20x20 squares in the 3d view, objects in the area map (towns, big buildings etc.) are big enough to be drawn with black lines. However, for Helmetlands one square in the area view shall represent a larger area (probably 40x40 squares or more), so that important structures have only a few pixels width - black outlines would make these objects appear as black spots... :)

The idea with the device drawn in the same style as the walls and the overland map being a computer graphic was a good compromise... :)


You could also program the entire overland in 3D view.  ;D

In this context, I thought again about scales in DC and FRUA (we talked that over several times, and maybe I missed that the following is already detailedly discussed somewhere - but if not, it may be interesting):

I think we more or less agree that a wall in the 3d view is 2.4 to 3.6 m high (8 to 12 ft), thus, a square should be around the same distance wide and long (a little shorter in default DC's 3d view, but let's assume a square is 3.3 m long for simlipicity).

This means that a distance of 1 km would be represented by 1000m:3.3m = 300 squares. Thus 1 mi would be almost 500 squares.
Thus, imagine how many levels you would need to construct e.g. two villages only two miles away from each other... :D :D :D Of course this calculation is crazy.

The approach I would use for doing the overland completely in 3d view would be the following: It lasts one minute to pass a square. Thus, the party can walk the distance of 60 squares in one hour. The human walking speed is 5km/h (3mp/h), thus, I would use not more than 20 squares to represent one mile, which is factor 25 less than 500 squares.
With this approach, the "distance feeling" when walking from e.g. one village to another would be more realistic than with the calculation method based on the square size.
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Offline manikus

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Re: Preview: Helmetlands
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2010, 02:42:01 PM »
Let me throw out a couple of things, just because. :)

1) DCs views, any of them, are representational, not actual. Think of them as a visual metaphor. Whatever meaning we give to them, they have. This is why nobody except the artists really worries about the scale of combat squares compared to the scale of 3D view squares, compared to overland squares. If it looks good and doesn't seem to ridiculous, it's acceptable. :)

2) No matter the scale and all of our mechanations to simulate various things of the real world, any distance that bores the player and/or the designer is too long. It doesn't matter the scale or the view.

3) I think graphics or a text statement as one leaves the city/village/dungeon to the "3D view overland" could explain why the distance seems shorter. You can be as creative as you want to be, anything from stating something like, "without other people around, the party can trot along at double speed", to something like changing the scale of the walls, to something like adding sprites to simulate a mode of transportation. :)

None of these are directly responding to your points or anyone elses. Just something to consider from a meta-design perspective. :D

Offline Dinonykos

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Re: Preview: Helmetlands
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2010, 05:47:36 PM »
None of these are directly responding to your points or anyone elses. Just something to consider from a meta-design perspective. :D

I agree with all you points. Both time and distances are rather symbolic than actual in DC and FRUA. However, to allow the player to dive into the game, it is crucial to give him a feeling for distances and timing that is consistent. E.g., if an NPC in city A tells you that city B is several miles away, you should be able to get to B in an amount of time that reflects this distance of several miles (let's say two game hours). Therefore, it is not wrong to make some calculations... :) To avoid boring situations, as you already wrote, means of transportation, teleporter spells or similar things should of course be available to the player if he has to travel a long distance.

Another example: In Helmetlands I want to have one very big city which can be entered through different portals (you can already see it above on the map) and is three overland squares wide. I think the time you need to travel through the city via the 3d view should be equivalent to the time you need to pass it by on the overland map...
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Offline manikus

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Re: Preview: Helmetlands
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2010, 06:12:10 PM »
See, we're already thinking of it differently - you want the same amount of time to pass, which is not necessarily related to distance. :)

I think the default overland time per step is 720 minutes and the widest level in 3D view can only be 100 squares, there is a discrepancy. But DC allows you to adjust both the time it takes to move a square in 3D view and the time it takes to move a square in the overland view to anything you want. :)

By the way, the speed at which DC parties walk in 3D view is right around 1 mile an hour, using 3 to 3.3 meters per square. That's slow, even if you're making the gnome carry your plate mail. ;) But, since we don't require the PCs to eat or use the bathroom or sleep, i.e. each step is representational not actual, we all (so far) accept one minute per square.

So, if you make each step on the overland map last 100 minutes and use levels that are 100x100, you will have no problems at all. :D (Other than the scale of the overlands being huge)

But, if we get back to using 3D levels in lieu of overlands, well 100 squares (300 to 333 meters), that would mean 4 levels between your examplar two villages that are 2 miles apart. It seems you would burn up all your levels pretty quickly - that is unless you limit the width of the path that can be walked. :) Let's say village 1 is due west of village 2. When you leave the gate of village 1 and head into the woods on the path, maybe you can only go let's say 8 or 9 squares to either side, you can use transfer module events to go from the right side of track 1 to the left side of track 2, etc. and get 500 west to east squares out of one level. :)

 

anything