Author Topic: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)  (Read 914 times)

Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2018, 05:11:46 PM »
...A view which is entirely 100% subjective cannot be wrong. 
But a contrary viewpoint which is likewise 100% subjective also cannot be wrong...   
 

For those interested in the subject of judging art (not limited to Last Jedi) using objective criteria (or even the thought that such criteria can exist in regards to art), you might find this video by YA fantasy author James Matlack Raney of interest:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SjFgbk6OyA 

You might also note the irony that the UA author linking that video (me) is rather notorious for bucking what could be called objectively good criteria for what makes a good UA mod.   :P

Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2018, 05:14:51 PM »
THE BIG LIST OF LAST JEDI CRITICISMS



(part 3)



(Major Spoilers Warning!)




The opening crawl added no new information (another Star Wars first).

Why does the Resistance fleet consist of only one main ship now?

Poe's reasoning for taking out the Dreadnought made good military sense. 

Leia's reasoning for aborting the attack made questionable military sense.

Bombers, so big, slow, & fragile, must be incredible liabilities to the Resistance.   

Why didn't the Resistance bombers have any shields?

The hangar bay was destroyed too easily --where did Leia's ship's shields go? 

The bridge of her ship was destroyed too easily --again: shields!

How did the Resistance fleet's shields hold up under a 13+ hours bombardment? 

When their hangar bay was destroyed, where were all those Resistance Transports?

Why couldn't the Resistance have hyperspaced to Republic controlled territory? 

Did destroying 1 solar system in the last film take out the entire *Galactic* Republic?

Hyperdrives and sublight engines use two separate types of fuel! 

The ice on Leia visually tells us that she was NOT in a "Force bubble."

If Leia is a great Force user, why didn't she train Rey?

Holdo gives no reason for Poe not to think that SHE might be a spy.

Why is Snoke so focused on the Resistance instead of his open war on the Republic?

Why doesn't Snoke complete Kylo's training like he said he was going to? 

Why does Snoke have a problem with Kylo's mask only now? 

Why did the Resistance fleet hyperjump to empty space instead of another base?

How do Rose, Finn & DJ know so much about the Tracker when it's brand new technology?

They cut away from Luke before he can show grief over Han, --"you b*st*rds!"

Luke could not have had enough leverage to pull that fish out of the water.

Rey seems to spend much more time on D’Qar than the parallel "chase" plot took.

After Holdo devastated the First Order fleet, how did they recover so fast? 

Rey should've killed or captured Kylo Ren while he was unconscious.

What First Order ship was carrying that massive battering-ram cannon? & Why?

Rose's last speech runs counter to her sister Paige's bombs-away sacrifice.

How did Finn get Rose back to the base under the noses of all those Walkers?

How come Luke lost once to young Kylo, but can now toy with improved Kylo?

Luke dies from Force projecting, so how can Snoke link Rey & Kylo so easily?
 
How can the Millennium Falcon get away at the end without being Tracked?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 05:18:09 PM by hans »

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2018, 11:46:09 AM »
Oh boy...more fun...

The opening crawl added no new information (another Star Wars first).


This is actually wildly inaccurate, which will become clear.


Why does the Resistance fleet consist of only one main ship now?

The answer to this is in the opening crawl...
"Only General Leia Organa’s band of RESISTANCE fighters stand against the rising tyranny..."


Poe's reasoning for taking out the Dreadnought made good military sense. 

Leia's reasoning for aborting the attack made questionable military sense.

Opinion. 

It can easily be argued that getting people killed and wasting valuable military resources versus taking out a single ship was the wiser move. Running away intact means you will be able to mount a better defense or offense at a later date.


Bombers, so big, slow, & fragile, must be incredible liabilities to the Resistance.   

Why didn't the Resistance bombers have any shields?

Why don't TIE Fighters have shields?  Who knows.  Not all ships in Star Wars have shields.  It's a design decision.  Making it a reason to dislike this movie invalidates all the Star Wars movies, given that there are ships in those movies that also don't have shields.

Shields require an energy expenditure that takes away from available power to the engines.  Given the argument that the bombers are slow, you wouldn't want to make them slower. 


Why couldn't the Resistance have hyperspaced to Republic controlled territory? 

Did destroying 1 solar system in the last film take out the entire *Galactic* Republic?

Look...another question answered by the opening crawl that supposedly imparts no new information...

"The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy."



LANDS OF ADVENTURE: An Old-School Style CRPG

More Information Here: http://landsadventure.blogspot.com/

Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2018, 03:00:59 PM »
Heh.  The opening crawl criticisms and your rebuttles are evidence that I have used multiple sources in compiling the list. 

Apparently, those who thought the opening crawl gave no new information saw the ascension of the First Order as, if not explicit, at least implicit in the previous film (The Force Awakens). 

Others, considering the size and scope of the New Galactic Republic couldn't think of the destruction of only "the capital of the New Republic, Hosnian Prime, and four other planets in the Hosnian system," and even "a significant portion of the New Republic's fleet" as anything more than akin to the bombing of Pearl Harbor; only the start of open warfare between considerable military forces.   

Those are not the only contradictions that can be found within the Big List. 

Take the one criticism that Poe's taking out of the Dreadnought made good military sense, for example.  Having made such a vast destructive force vulnerable, this argument goes, and not to destroy it but to leave it capable of future acts of death & destruction would make the Resistance at least partially responsible for those deaths & destruction.  The losses the Resistance incurred were extraordinarily minor compared to the losses to the First Order, besides which casualties are to be expected in war.  For, apart from the incredible destructive power of the Dreadnought, itself, it had to be carrying a massive amount of troops, smaller fighter ships, Walkers, etc., --essentially a small but fully equipped army. 

Moreover, the Resistance almost immediately benefitted from Poe's decision, themselves, by not having that Dreadnought on their tails during the space chase or afterwards on the salt planet of Crait.  Wasn't it that Dreadnought which was able to destroy, from orbit, the Resistance base on D'Qar? 

But then we have other critics who say that Poe should've been thrown in irons for his actions.  That he was personally responsible for all the deaths on the bombers.  That he had their blood on his hands.  Some of these critics further point out that Poe's message to Finn was responsible for the failure of Holdo's plan, and so making Poe also personally responsible for all the Resistance deaths in the movie. 

Some have even called Poe the biggest villain of the film.  :P

In the interest of completeness, I have disqualified from inclusion on this Big List very few of the criticisms that I have heard.       
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 05:16:50 PM by hans »

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2018, 06:00:24 PM »
I suppose if we wanted to nitpick, we could find a multitude of things to complain about in any Star Wars film, even from the original trilogy...
LANDS OF ADVENTURE: An Old-School Style CRPG

More Information Here: http://landsadventure.blogspot.com/

Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2018, 07:20:42 PM »
I suppose if we wanted to nitpick, we could find a multitude of things to complain about in any Star Wars film, even from the original trilogy...
 

True enough.   ;D

Return of the Jedi, for example: 

Minor: Chewbacca doing the Tarzan yell. 

Major: Luke Skywalker throwing his lightsaber away when he still had the Emperor to deal with! 

My inclusion of minor (even arguably insignificant) criticisms on the Big List I hope adds to its value as a learning tool.  The ability to judge between major and minor criticisms is a valuable skill for both artists and critics.  To be able to rationally examine the criteria used for a criticism; whether a point made is purely a matter of personal taste, or represents a clear plot hole, for example.   

Let me connect this idea with how we judge UA mods.  Here are some standard categories of criteria UA critics have used to rate UA mods for many years:

Plot (Story)
Text
Artwork
Hacks
Events
Combats
Originality
Fun
Errors
Bugs

How would you (addressing all readers) organize that list from least important to most important?  Howabout from most objective to most subjective? 

Now think about the criteria used for each of the individual categories.  Combat, for instance.  What elements make for good combats?  Is it just a matter of challenge?  Or does variety of monster types also matter?  Frequency of combats?  Logical reasons for the combats?  Etc. 

Now how would you organize those Combat elements from least to most important, or from most objective to most subjective? 

It is to help exercise those thinking muscles that I assembled and posted this Big List. 

ProphetSword has shown that his muscles are well-developed.  How are yours?   ;)

Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2018, 05:52:56 PM »
I've nearly finished posting all the thoughts that I personally wanted to share in this thread.  A few more posts will probably do it. 

I started the Big List after I had, over a period of several weeks, listened to online reviews of the movie, just as something to listen to, as I worked on some UA art.  I found folks sharing about their own thoughts and reactions to be interesting, amusing, and sometimes fascinating. 

I would not, however, listen to reviews that fell into profane name-calling or to insulting those on the opposite side of their argument.  I would stop and skip those.  I understand that the subject is an emotional one for many, but there is never an excuse for such rudeness.  (I am very gratified that this forum maintains an atmosphere of mutual respect among its members.) 

As I've said, my goal has never been to flagellate the film, or to try to change anybody's mind about it. 

If you liked or loved it, there are good, legitimate reasons to like or love the movie: your own genuine reaction proves it

Likewise, if you disliked or even hated the movie, there are good, legitimate reasons to dislike or hate the movie: again, your own genuine reaction is proof

My goal, rather, has been for a consideration of, through discussion, the reasons one might react to the film in those different ways.  And through such consideration, enjoy an increased understanding of how art and audience may connect. 

UA designs should be considered within that general category of art, as without the stories and imagery in our mods, we might as well be playing solitaire or doing crosswords.

So, I ask you to consider this question (using the most general meaning of the word "art"): 

What is the purpose of art criticism?
   

Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2018, 12:07:32 PM »
In a lighter vein...    ;D

Here's an animated spoof of The Last Jedi movie trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G17PLsTkKWI 

This is not Last Jedi, but it is Luke & Yoda: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9t-slLl30E

Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2018, 10:38:57 AM »
What is Art? 

Normal communication is like a window. 

I present information to you through that window, and likewise you to me.  We want that window to be as clear as possible so that our mutual understanding is also as clear as possible, with as few misunderstandings as possible. 

Art is both a window and a mirror.

The artist provides information through the medium, but the audience for that art brings something of their own.  The audience is free, if not encouraged, to explore the art through their own personal lens.  Each individual audience member will see connections, meanings, and nuances beyond that which the artist provided.  They will assign values, make judgments, and respond emotionally in ways that are as unique to themselves as their own image in a mirror. 

And, as a general rule, the more like a mirror a piece of art is, the higher the art.     

 

anything