Author Topic: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)  (Read 645 times)

Offline hans

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Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« on: January 19, 2018, 01:47:07 PM »
Because of its nature, and for a variety of reasons, I thought it might be better to give this subject its own thread, rather than post it in Inspirations: Movies, Music, Websites etc. 

Star Wars: The Last Jedi has been the most divisive Star Wars movie ever.  I have friends & relatives who are big Star Wars fans, with whom I enjoyed discussing the movie.  I wanted to find a comprehensive list of all the different criticisms made about the film, to share with them.  The subject, itself, of why this movie has been so divisive can be instructive on how storytellers and audiences connect.  I couldn't find such a list, so I threw one together myself.  Even if you love the movie, this list should be helpful in understanding the divide it has created between Star Wars fans.  These criticisms are not original with me, and I don't necessarily agree with every one, and some are admittedly more minor (nitpicky) than others, and I may have missed a few criticisms that are out there, but below is the list (in 3 parts).

*BEWARE: MASSIVE SPOILERS!*
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 05:15:38 PM by hans »

Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2018, 01:49:52 PM »

THE BIG LIST OF LAST JEDI CRITICISMS




(part 1)




(Major Spoilers Warning!)




The title "The Last Jedi" was a misleading lie to the audience (a Star Wars first).

Too much heavy-handed, forced humor (beginning with Poe's prank call to General Hux). 

General Hux was turned into a ridiculous, non-threatening caricature.

Resistance bombers function like there is Earth-like gravity in outer space. 

Stupid tactics to have bombers fly so close together as to endanger one another.

Multiple bombers was overkill, since a single one could destroy the Star Destroyer.

How did opening the bomb bay doors not cause explosive decompression?

Just because Poe refused to follow Leia's orders, shouldn't have meant every pilot would.

Leia is portrayed as a weak leader (and slapping Poe seems a gender stereotype).

Leia shows little of the fire or wits she possessed in her youth (original trilogy).

Poe should've been thrown into the brig to await court-martial after the first battle.

After being cut down by a lightsaber, Finn is all better after, like, a day, right? 

Neither nurse nor medical droid is around to look after Finn.

The big space chase is boring and illogical.

Why didn't the Resistance fleet scatter to the winds? 

Why didn't the Resistance fleet scatter later, after nobody followed Finn's ship?

Why couldn't the Resistance escape through hyperspace in those "cloaked" transports?

Spaceships running out of gas? (Where would a Death Star go to fill up?)

Spaceships shouldn't need to burn fuel in order to maintain speed in space.

All the spaceships travel at the same sublight speeds, --except tie fighters (Why?).

Why didn't the First Order destroy the Resistance with ongoing tie fighter attacks.

Why didn't the First Order outflank the Resistance by lightspeeding some ships ahead?

Leia survives explosion, explosive decompression, and the cold vacuum of space. 

Leia floats herself to safety, having shown no hint of this level of power before. 

The Rebels open a door to save Leia without it causing another explosive decompression.

Admiral Ackbar's death is disrespected.

Vice Admiral Holdo could've told Poe her plan and so prevent the later mutiny. 

Holdo could've at least assured Poe that she had a plan instead of just insulting him.

Holdo teaches all the kids in the audience not to question authority.

Finn & Poe didn't have enough of a relationship with Maz Kanata to explain calling her.

How did Finn & Poe even have Maz Kanata's space phone number?

If they can call Maz, why not call the Resistance allies instead? 



Luke Skywalker consistently acts way out of character.

Luke disrespects his father's lightsaber by throwing it over his shoulder.

Luke disrespects Jedis in general (which would include Obi-Wan, Yoda, etc.)

Luke wants the Jedis to end because of ridiculously flawed reasoning.

Luke cut himself off from the Force, but chose to live in the Jedi's holiest place.

Why did Luke leave a map if he's just going to give whoever comes a cold shoulder?

Why would Rey have to translate Chewbacca language to Luke? 

Porgs! 

Not eating the roast porg is not going to bring it back to life, little porg. 

Luke promises Rey three Jedi lessons, but delivers only two. 

Luke's lessons suck, --he's a really bad teacher.

Luke was about to murder his nephew in his sleep!!!, even though he did stop himself.

How could a lesser Kylo have killed Luke's other pupils when Kylo can't even beat Rey?

Rey seems too quick to forgive Kylo for killing his own father, her friend Han Solo.

Filmmakers seem adverse to letting Rey get hurt, or suffer, or seriously struggle.

Rey continues to prove herself a "Mary Sue" --unjustifiably skilled & powerful.

Rey wins a physical fight with Luke, making her a "Super Mary Sue."
 
Luke wants to burn books he disagrees with (you know, just like the Nazis).

The sacred Jedi books must be important, because nobody's ever made copies of them.

Yoda destroys the Jedi temple-tree throwing many fish-nun Caretakers out of jobs.

Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2018, 01:51:22 PM »
THE BIG LIST OF LAST JEDI CRITICISMS



(part 2)



(Major Spoilers Warning!)



Where do Finn & Rose get their gas, when it's in such short supply? 

Why couldn't they use that gas to get much more gas for the Rebel fleet? 

Finn & Rose could've gotten important Rebel leader Leia to better help and safety.

Finn & Rose created their own problems by parking illegally.

They could have let BB-8 circle in the ship for them instead of illegally parking.

Finn & Rose escape jail through the power of: Robot Jackpot! 

The movie was patronizing.

Hamfisted social message after hamfisted social message after hamfisted...

Finn & Rose get preachy against rich people, ignoring the fact of: Princesses. 
 
Finn & Rose get preachy about animal rights, making their failed mission "worth it."

You know, those space-horse Fathiers will probably all be recaptured tomorrow.

Freeing the Fathiers is so righteous, but it's fine to leave children in slavery? 

Are Finn & Rose going to free the Taun-Tauns of Episode 5 next? 

Finn & Rose fail in their mission, settling for a wrong codebreaker.

DJ explains that wars are pointless; so rename franchise "Star Protests."



The revelation about Rey's parents is totally disappointing. 

Rey's lack of Jedi heritage completely confirms her "Mary Sue" status.

Rey is equal to or better than everybody else in a fight except for Snoke. 

Snoke is killed by trickery, removing the only real threat to Rey. 

Nothing about Snoke is explained; no backstory furnished.



At sub-light speed, the chase must've started suspiciously close to the planet Crait. 

At sub-light speed, Crait had to have been in the only solar system within reach.

The First Order could've hyperspaced ahead of the Resistance to secure Crait.

Using hyperspeed as a weapon makes all previous space battles seem foolish. 

Why didn't the Resistance do that with some of the spaceships they abandoned earlier?


How did Rey get back on the Millennium Falcon with Chewbacca after the big explosion?

Captain Phasma is frustratingly under-utilized.

Finn doesn't fall to his death fighting Phasma because of: lucky coincidence.

BB-8: cute robots are not cute if they're killing people. 

Maybe BB-8 should do all the fighting next time.

Finn & Rose reunite too easily with the already cornered Rebels.

Finn didn't know how to fly in the last movie, so how's he flying in this one?

Having Rose become an expert fighter pilot makes her a "Mary Sue."

Rose prevents Finn from sacrificing himself to save the Resistance.   

Rose was too dense to see that Finn was "saving what he loves" --the Resistance. 

From the p.o.v. of that moment, Rose just ensured the defeat & deaths of them all.

Maybe Rose should've prevented Holdo's self-sacrifice, too.

Rose's declaration of love came out of nowhere.

No allies responded to the call for help, --not even the ewoks. 

Why didn't Luke tell any of the Resistance that he was going to buy them time.

There was no true lightsaber duel. 

Luke's big moment is kind of a cheat, since he wasn't physically there.

Why didn't Luke use his X-wing to go help the Resistance (was it out of gas?)?

Why did Luke sacrifice himself instead of living and training up more Jedis? 

Luke should've sent Ghost Yoda to zap the First Order with lightning bolts.

NOBODY wanted Luke to die, so thanks for that.

All the blood on Poe's hands doesn't matter because he's learned his lesson. 

The orphan kid uses the Force to grab his broom when he's had no Jedi training. 

Apparently, nobody needs training to be a Jedi anymore.

The movie was too long.

The movie had pacing problems, with many scenes overlong and dragging.

It only had 3 really good action scenes: 1st battle, Kylo+Ren teamup, Crait battle.

The major battle scenes were shorter and less complex than in Episodes 1-6.
 

The good guys failed in almost every goal they set for themselves. 

The good guys lost a lot of ground and very few survived.

If the entire Resistance fits in the Millennium Falcon, maybe it's time to call it quits.

The movie seems to revel in the failure and defeat of the good guys.

Every victory Luke had in the original trilogy seems undone or has unravelled. 

The entire original trilogy is made to seem pointless.

Anti-male, because all the women are morally perfect but all the guys hugely flawed.

Anti-male, because all the males must be schooled by the morally superior women.

It eroded the good vs evil themes of the Force and all the previous films.

If aspiring to the light side means and equal and opposite growth in the dark side, then better for everyone to stay comfortably gray.  It's an excuse for moral compromise and ambiguity and a helluva poor lesson to teach the next generation of Star Wars kids.

[part 3 of list can be found on page 3]
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 05:17:24 PM by hans »

Offline steve_mcdee

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2018, 03:09:20 PM »
Thanks hans. Interesting list. Like you, I don’t agree with all those criticisms (though I do agree with many of them). It does make you wonder whether, for a Star Wars film at least, which is bound to be heavily analysed by fans and critics, the filmmakers should sit down st some point and work through a list of relatively obvious criticisms. They could then have made some well-considered minor changes to reduce them.

We might add that if Leia has such strong ability with the force, why has she never used it (at least overtly) to benefit the Rebel Alliance / Resistance? The only time she ever uses it it seems be just to save herself.

I hope we get an alien mainish character in episode IX. And I like your idea about showing Snoke’s and Kylo Ren’s rise to power (and Luke fighting with them? and the Knights of Ren?) through flashbacks or something.

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2018, 06:24:21 PM »
I liked the movie, and while I agree with a couple of the points, I think a lot of these are just nitpicks or opinions. 

I'm actually going to respond to some of these; because...why not?


The title "The Last Jedi" was a misleading lie to the audience (a Star Wars first).

This is just silly.  Luke is the last Jedi.  Rey and Kylo Ren are not Jedi.  The movie goes to some length to make this clear.  They are something new.  They are powerful Force users, but neither of them follow the Jedi traditions...hence, not Jedi.


Too much heavy-handed, forced humor (beginning with Poe's prank call to General Hux). 

This is opinion.  Humor is in the eye of the beholder.  While some of it seemed forced, some of it was funny.  I'll admit, I didn't like it all, but I didn't hate it all either.


General Hux was turned into a ridiculous, non-threatening caricature.

Was there a time that he wasn't?  In "The Force Awakens," I found Hux completely useless.  Who put this guy in charge?  Why is he in charge?  "The Last Jedi" didn't ruin him, he was already pointless. 


Resistance bombers function like there is Earth-like gravity in outer space. 

Ships in Star Wars generate gravity fields, which why characters can walk around inside the spaceships instead of floating through them.  It is conceivable that the bombs would fall toward an object with a large gravity field. 


Stupid tactics to have bombers fly so close together as to endanger one another.

No one complained when TIE fighters bumped into each other or had bad tactics in previous Star Wars movies.  Are the bad guys the only ones capable of making errors?


Multiple bombers was overkill, since a single one could destroy the Star Destroyer.

Maybe.  What's the guarantee that just one bomber would succeed?


How did opening the bomb bay doors not cause explosive decompression?

Because Star Wars is Space Opera Fantasy and not Science Fiction.  I suppose if we're going to complain about this, we can go all the way back to the original argument from 1977 that explosions would not occur in space, lasers wouldn't emit noise in a vacuum, and parsecs are a measure of distance and not time.  Science was never Star Wars' strong suit.  So, therefore, none of the movies is scientifically accurate in any way.


Leia is portrayed as a weak leader (and slapping Poe seems a gender stereotype).

Opinion.


Leia shows little of the fire or wits she possessed in her youth (original trilogy).

Opinion.  Also, people age and change.


Poe should've been thrown into the brig to await court-martial after the first battle.

I actually agree with this one.


The big space chase is boring and illogical.

Opinion.


Why didn't the Resistance fleet scatter to the winds? 

In "A New Hope," why didn't the Rebels flee the moon of Yavin IV the moment the Death Star appeared on their scopes?  They had plenty of ships.  Again, it's not always the bad guys who make tactical mistakes.  Good thing it worked out for them.


Spaceships running out of gas? (Where would a Death Star go to fill up?)

According to theforce.net, here is what they have to say about the endurance of ion propulsion drives:
 The characteristic timescale for fuel consumption by an ion-drive starship, running at acceleration a, is equal to c/a. If the maximum acceleration of a ship is limited to a fixed value (e.g. because of inertial effects) then the time it takes to exhaust its fuel is t = (c/a) ln( 1 + X ). Here the variable X is defined as the initial ratio of fuel mass to ship's structural mass, X = m(fuel)/m(ship). (The function “ln” is the natural logarithm.) For example, a ship accelerating at 3000G will exhaust itself in 19.6 hours if X=1000; in 13.0 hours if X=100; or in 6.8 hours if X=10. This result is independent of the absolute mass of the ship, only the fuel mass ratio is important.
Periods of hot pursuit or intense space battles are limited by the availability of reactor fuel. If the fuel mass is only a few orders of magnitude greater than the structural mass then maximum acceleration may be sustainable for only a few hours. Episodes of maximum reactor output for other functions (e.g. combat at full firepower) are similarly limited in duration. However normal operations require power levels that are orders of magnitude less than the peak. During idle times, coasting, waiting and searching for trouble, a warship may apply accelerations of a few G or less. This will allow timescales of years between refuelling stops. Starfighters may have lower values of the X ratio than warships have; this is one of the reasons why they have short operating times.

Spaceships shouldn't need to burn fuel in order to maintain speed in space.

Spaceships do need to burn fuel in order to keep ahead of other ships that are pursuing them by also burning fuel, due to friction and the pull of gravity by the large ships behind them.


Why didn't the First Order destroy the Resistance with ongoing tie fighter attacks.

Because, Hux is useless.  But, also, why waste valuable resources?  Destroyed TIE fighters are lost resources.


Why didn't the First Order outflank the Resistance by lightspeeding some ships ahead?

I hear this argument a lot.  But it is flawed.  If I was on a Resistance ship and I saw or detected First Order vessels entering hyperspace (because it's not lightspeed, that's something different, so that's a wrong argument to begin with), my first response would have been to change direction enough to thwart their plan, and this would have been easily accomplished by making minor course deviations over time.


Leia survives explosion, explosive decompression, and the cold vacuum of space. 

Anakin survives being burned alive by lava.  Solo survived being stored in freezing carbonite. 

I made the point earlier that this is Science Opera Fantasy, not Science Fiction.  There is even an argument to be made that it doesn't take place in our own universe.  And also, the Force might be really strong in her.  Funny nobody minds that Luke could jump 30 feet straight upward or that Ben Kenobi can outrun a landspeeder.


Leia floats herself to safety, having shown no hint of this level of power before. 

To be fair, we haven't seen her much over the last 30 years.  We don't know that she didn't get some sort of training from Luke.  Just because it isn't mentioned doesn't mean it didn't happen.

And, while I hated the floating scene with a fiery passion, it was because of how they handled it, not because I was surprised Leia had power with the Force.  Yoda mentioned that the Force was strong in Luke's sister.


Admiral Ackbar's death is disrespected.

Admiral Ackbar was never that important to Star Wars.  If not for the "It's a trap!" meme, nobody would care.


Vice Admiral Holdo could've told Poe her plan and so prevent the later mutiny. 

Because, as we all know, high ranking military officers are in the habit of explaining their every action to low level subordinates who have recently been in trouble.  Happens all the time.


Holdo could've at least assured Poe that she had a plan instead of just insulting him.

Poe could have also trusted her.


Holdo teaches all the kids in the audience not to question authority.

Opinion.


Luke Skywalker consistently acts way out of character.

People can change in 30 years.  For example, I am not the same enthusastic kid who saw Return of the Jedi in 1983.  Is Luke somehow immune to becoming cynical?


Luke disrespects his father's lightsaber by throwing it over his shoulder.

The very weapon that almost helped turned him to the Dark Side.  Sure, I get it.


Luke disrespects Jedis in general (which would include Obi-Wan, Yoda, etc.)

Luke is the last jedi.  He has earned the right to make whatever he wants of their legacy.


Luke wants the Jedis to end because of ridiculously flawed reasoning.

What exactly is the flawed reasoning?


Luke cut himself off from the Force, but chose to live in the Jedi's holiest place.

Perhaps to keep others from gaining the knowledge of the Jedi?


How could a lesser Kylo have killed Luke's other pupils when Kylo can't even beat Rey?

Rey is meant to be his equal.  Snoke says as much.


Rey seems too quick to forgive Kylo for killing his own father, her friend Han Solo.

Who has more pain over that?  Rey, who knew him for all of a day or so, or Kylo himself?


Rey continues to prove herself a "Mary Sue" --unjustifiably skilled & powerful.

This is a dumb argument I've heard on the Internet a few times.  It's unfounded.  Rey, as I mentioned above, is not a Jedi.  She is something different.  Kylo Ren is something different.  Their powers are different.  People keep trying to stick them in the Jedi limits.
 

Luke wants to burn books he disagrees with (you know, just like the Nazis).


Or, you know...to end the Jedi.  Like he said he wanted to do.



More later, when I have time.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 06:26:59 PM by ProphetSword »
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Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2018, 06:34:19 PM »
...We might add that if Leia has such strong ability with the force, why has she never used it (at least overtly) to benefit the Rebel Alliance / Resistance? The only time she ever uses it it seems be just to save herself...
 

I thought about Leia's much-maligned Mary Poppins moment, and I wondered: What if someone else was responsible?  The movie doesn't explicitly say that she did it herself using the Force.  But who else could have been able to use the Force to save her...? 

The Force ghost of her father, Anakin (formerly Darth Vader)?  That would seem laughable to me.  But after seeing Ghost Yoda in this movie, it would now be within the realm of possibilities. 

Kylo Ren?  He didn't kill his mom when he had the chance, so maybe he also saved her. 

Snoke?  But why would he?  Unless it was to keep her alive for now so that he could make Kylo kill her later.  To make this reveal work in a future movie, however, would require bringing Snoke back.


Offline steve_mcdee

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2018, 10:42:54 PM »
Some good responses there Ben. I liked the movie too.

One moment that did strike me at the time was that Finn attempt to sacrifice himself did appear to be directed to helping, and calculated to help, the Resistance, while Rose’s attempt to save him seemed most likely to result in both of them being killed (after all, they were now likely to be stranded well out on the salt without any obvious way to get back to the base) while negating any benefit to the Resistance which Finn’s action might have caused. The difference seems to be that Finn was, in that moment, gritting his teeth and motivated as much by anger or hatred against the First Order as by love or hope for the Resistance. It seemed like they really wanted to give Rose that line ... anyway, I’m glad they both survived (perhaps there is some doubt about Rose, but I’m pretty sure she survived).

Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2018, 11:03:11 PM »
Luke wants the Jedis to end because of ridiculously flawed reasoning.

What exactly is the flawed reasoning?
 

Hmm, lemme see if I can synthesize the variations of this argument in a neatly concise form...

Luke didn't offer more than a few statements, which pointed out the rise of Darth Sidious (Palpatine) at the height of the Jedi's power, and that his own father (Darth Vader) turned to the Dark Side.  He focused only on the Jedi's failures, without the context of the challenges they faced, nor the victories they won, nor the beneficial philosophies they championed (like democracy*). 

Rey easily punched a hole in Luke's rationale by reminding him that he saved his father. 

Luke, rather than try to defend his previous line of reasoning, bemoans that his actions made him a legend --which had nothing to do with the Jedi or why they should end.  Luke was projecting his own self-loathing onto the Jedi. 

IIRC, one proponent this particular Last Jedi criticism used a police analogy, something like:  If you have a police force, which as an organization holds to high ideals and helps individuals and society, even if it isn't perfect, --if some members betray their office, or if the mafia grew in power despite the police, would that be justification to end the police? 

Furthermore, if the Jedi did end, it would not mean that the Sith and the agents of the Dark Side would call it quits.  It would only mean that the galaxy would lose what had been its best defense against them.  Ipso facto, Luke would be giving the Dark Side perhaps its greatest victory.

*Obi-Wan: Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic... to democracy! (Revenge of the Sith)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 11:07:37 PM by hans »

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2018, 08:30:42 AM »
More...


Finn & Rose created their own problems by parking illegally.

They could have let BB-8 circle in the ship for them instead of illegally parking.

Finn & Rose escape jail through the power of: Robot Jackpot! 

I can only agree with these points.  I found the casino sequence to be mostly pointless to the plot.


The movie was patronizing.

Opinion.


Hamfisted social message after hamfisted social message after hamfisted...

Opinion.


Finn & Rose get preachy against rich people, ignoring the fact of: Princesses. 

Actually, I'm pretty sure it was only Rose who said something negative about rich people.  That's the opinion of one character.  Han Solo was preachy against the Force and its religion, but I guess only white guys with cool ships can have opinions about things. 

 
Are Finn & Rose going to free the Taun-Tauns of Episode 5 next? 

Wow.


DJ explains that wars are pointless; so rename franchise "Star Protests."

Again, the opinion of one character.  When did we assume that minor characters carry the narrative of the film?


The revelation about Rey's parents is totally disappointing. 

Opinion.  For myself and at least one other person I know, we were relieved that Rey was not part of the Skywalker line, as that would have been completely obvious and predictable.  The fact that she came from nothing is ultimately more interesting than if she had been Darth Vader's long lost half-sister's cousin.


Rey's lack of Jedi heritage completely confirms her "Mary Sue" status.

It confirms she's not a Jedi, which is the point of the title.


Rey is equal to or better than everybody else in a fight except for Snoke. 

Rey is strong and powerful, this was established in the first movie.  She's a natural with the Force.  Snoke recognized this and said as much.  Not sure why this is a problem.  Anakin was also very naturally powerful.

But also, this is untrue.  I just rewatched the scene here (jump to around 2:06):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI6wderERjA

You will clearly see that Kylo Ren takes on three guards at a time while Rey struggles with just one.  Hardly better than everyone.


Snoke is killed by trickery, removing the only real threat to Rey. 

But also removing the only threat to Kylo Ren, who is Rey's equal.  People keep saying that Rey easily defeated Kylo Ren in "The Force Awakens," but forget that he was wounded from being hit by a Wookie bowcaster shot just prior to their engagement.


Nothing about Snoke is explained; no backstory furnished.

Sort of like how when "Return of the Jedi" came out and we didn't know anything about the Emperor.  Before the prequels, there was a lot we didn't know.  Do today's audiences expect everything to be spoon fed to them?


Using hyperspeed as a weapon makes all previous space battles seem foolish. 

I agree with this.  I'm not sure why the droids in the prequels didn't end the Republic with this method.


Captain Phasma is frustratingly under-utilized.

Opinion.  She was never more than a side character in the first place.  People place too much emphasis on who the actress is, I think.  If it had been a nobody, no one would care about this.


Finn doesn't fall to his death fighting Phasma because of: lucky coincidence.

Because there are no lucky coincidences in any of the other Star Wars movies...


Apparently, nobody needs training to be a Jedi anymore.

I will point out again that these people aren't Jedi.  Jedi are a monastic order.  They are elitists who follow a strict code of living and who eventually lost their way until Luke redeemed them.  But Jedi aren't the only ones who have access to the Force, as it is touched by every living thing.  Some people, I think, missed the entire message of this movie, which is that the Jedi are done, but the Force lives on.

The movie was too long.

Opinion.


The good guys failed in almost every goal they set for themselves. 

That's the theme of the movie, though.  If you truly examine the movie, the whole movie is about the failure of heroes.  Every hero in the movie, even Luke Skywalker, faces some form of failure.  Luke's failure with his own internal struggles.  Rey's failure to reach Kylo Ren and turn him away from the dark side.  Poe's failure to follow the leaders he should be trusting instead of his own gut feelings.  Finn's & Rose's failure to save the day.  It is the point of the movie and possibly the narrative theme.  Heroes fail, but they persist.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 11:12:01 AM by ProphetSword »
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Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2018, 11:19:50 AM »
And a few more to finish it off:

If the entire Resistance fits in the Millennium Falcon, maybe it's time to call it quits.

Rebellions often start with just a handful of people.  Calling it quits means everyone that died did so for nothing.


Every victory Luke had in the original trilogy seems undone or has unravelled. 


I didn't get this at all.  Luke recognized that the Jedi were flawed.  This was revealed in the prequels.  It's why the Jedi couldn't see the corruption growing from within their own ranks.  They felt they had total dominion over the Force, but the Force belongs to everyone.   Luke's victories aren't undone; because he brought balance back to the Force.  His work is done.  And maybe he was never meant to continue the Jedi.


The entire original trilogy is made to seem pointless.

What?  How?


Anti-male, because all the women are morally perfect but all the guys hugely flawed.


Captain Phasma sure seemed morally perfect.


Anti-male, because all the males must be schooled by the morally superior women.

Sure.  ::)


It eroded the good vs evil themes of the Force and all the previous films.

People using the Force can still do both good or evil.  Those themes still exist.



If aspiring to the light side means and equal and opposite growth in the dark side, then better for everyone to stay comfortably gray.  It's an excuse for moral compromise and ambiguity and a helluva poor lesson to teach the next generation of Star Wars kids
.

Star Wars already taught this lesson, though, through six movies.  The fact that someone needed to bring balance to the Force, for example, shows that the Force was always supposed to be this way.  At one time, the Sith ruled the universe, then the Jedi.  Then, all was balanced, and their kind fell away for new champions of both good and evil to rise.



I welcome opposing viewpoints.  I just felt someone needs to answer some of these.
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Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2018, 11:40:12 AM »
More...
The movie was too long.

Opinion.
 

For the sake of those in the bleachers... (and particularly those whose bladders may have burst during this 2 hr 32 min movie...)  ;)

Noting that an argument is purely opinion does not invalidate it as a criticism.  Most published reviews by professional critics are nothing but opinion.  The Academy Award for Best Movie is determined through a consensus of opinion.   

What ProphetSword is pointing out is that this type of criticism is based on entirely subjective criteria.  Wholly matters of personal taste and preferences. 

A view which is entirely 100% subjective cannot be wrong. 
But a contrary viewpoint which is likewise 100% subjective also cannot be wrong.     
Thus an impasse.
Therefore such an "opinion" is a flimsy argument that cannot prove an objective point.

If you think The Last Jedi was too long, you are not wrong to think so. 
But if I like it long, I am likewise not wrong. 
No yardage gained, no yardage lost.

Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." (Return of the Jedi)

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2018, 12:16:25 PM »
I also want to point out that I understand why people may have disliked this movie or had issues with it.  I have my own issues with it.  It isn't my favorite movie in the series by a long shot.  I don't agree with the critics who claim it's as good as "The Empire Strikes Back," which is, to me, the best of the films.  But I also consider two other Star Wars movies as much worse than "The Last Jedi," so in my mind, it's not the worst either.

I enjoyed it in the theater and got my money's worth out of it.  Whether it stands the test of time will be determined when I buy it on Blu-Ray and watch it a few more times.
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Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2018, 01:50:46 PM »
I welcome opposing viewpoints.  I just felt someone needs to answer some of these.
 

I compiled the list precisely to stimulate discussions.   :) 

Here's two cents of my own:

One of the most often cited moments among fan-critics is this one:

Luke was about to murder his nephew in his sleep!!!, even though he did stop himself.

I believe that they are looking upon it in general terms, that Ben might turn to the Dark Side.  But what if the moment contained something more specific...? 

What if Luke was given a glimpse of the future, --the future in which Kylo Ren would kill his own father --Luke's best friend, brother-in-law, Han Solo...?

What if it was the virtual experiencing of that precise moment in the future that stirred Luke's battle-honed reflexes to ignite his lightsaber --to act as if his best friend was at that very moment in peril of his life...? 

IMO, that would make Luke's actions more understandable, and so I've had less problems with that sequence than many of the other fans. 

However, there is another criticism that I neglected to include on the list, that:

It was creepy of Luke to approach Ben in his sleep like that, in the first place. 


They might have a point there, particularly how the scene was shot. 

Some darker theorists point out that we only have Luke's word for his version of the incident...  :icon_pale:
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 01:53:15 PM by hans »

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2018, 05:29:51 PM »
Here's a decent article where someone discusses and defends some of the more criticized moments from the movie:

http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/269804/star-wars-the-last-jedi-exploring-the-most-heavily-criticized-moments-in-the-movie
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Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2018, 07:10:39 PM »
I also want to point out that I understand why people may have disliked this movie or had issues with it.  I have my own issues with it.  It isn't my favorite movie in the series by a long shot.  I don't agree with the critics who claim it's as good as "The Empire Strikes Back," which is, to me, the best of the films.  But I also consider two other Star Wars movies as much worse than "The Last Jedi," so in my mind, it's not the worst either.

I enjoyed it in the theater and got my money's worth out of it.  Whether it stands the test of time will be determined when I buy it on Blu-Ray and watch it a few more times.
 

As I mentioned in another thread, I'm split on the movie, myself. 

I found all the scenes containing Luke, Rey, or Kylo to be riveting (even if I would never have written Luke like that).  The other half of the movie, outside of a few of nice battle scenes, I found entirely underwhelming --providing the least amount of fun I've ever had at a Star Wars film. 

It was a real Jekyll & Hyde of a movie for me.   :-\  "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times..."

On the plus side was the amazing performance of Mark Hamill.  He was brilliant.  He took an extremely challenging and complex role and gave it captivating life.  Hands down for me it was the best performance ever in a Star Wars film. 

Alec Guinness was nominated for a Best Actor in a Supporting Role for the original Star Wars in 1978.  Accomplished as that was, IMO, Mark Hamill's performance dwarfs that of his onscreen mentor.   

 

anything