Author Topic: Guarding attacks after movement  (Read 373 times)

Offline manikus

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Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2017, 03:57:06 PM »
Attacks of Opportunity are not actual attacks. Nor are guarding attacks. They are scripted damage that we have made to look like an attack.

If these aren't actual attacks, is there a chance to miss?

There is nothing in my scripts for AoO or Guarding attacks to measure thac0 versus AC, so that bit is still hard-coded. I see AoO failing... There is a DoesAttackSucceed script that iworks with attacks, but I don't think this is in play for Free/Guarding attacks.

Offline Mechanaut

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Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2017, 05:56:00 PM »
I would not mind if undoing the move negated AOO attack damage, and restored the guard attack to the NPC.

Wouldn't that destroy some of the danger of tactical movement?

For example:  I move somewhere and provoke an AOO, only to have my character reduced to 1 HP.  Oops, let me back that up...
I don't think it will... not if the undone damage, accompanies a re-arming of the NPCs AOO action... It would happen again if tried again.

As I understand it, in the games, the undo option is only valid for an uncommitted move. If a PC can move 12 steps, then they can move up to 12 steps and undo... but if they move 7 steps and commit, they can not then move the remaining 4 steps with an undo that places then further back than step 7.


*Perhaps you mean that the player might repeat the action until the NPC misses onon their attack?  That would indeed be an exploit if allowed, but I think (or would hope) that it might be trivial to repeat the same attack roll for that action every time during that turn.


**I just tested Death Knights of Krynn, and in that game, the guard attack doesn't happen again, after an undo—but its damange is never undone, so it wouldn't have to.  It does seem exploitable if it then doesn't happen to other NPCs that approach on their turn. (I didn't check for that)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 06:14:35 PM by Mechanaut »

Offline Mechanaut

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Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2017, 06:15:13 PM »
I would not mind if undoing the move negated AOO attack damage, and restored the guard attack to the NPC.

Wouldn't that destroy some of the danger of tactical movement?

For example:  I move somewhere and provoke an AOO, only to have my character reduced to 1 HP.  Oops, let me back that up...
I don't think it will... not if the undone damage, accompanies a re-arming of the NPCs guard action... It would happen again if tried again.

As I understand it, in the games, the undo option is only valid for an uncommitted move. If a PC can move 12 steps, then they can move up to 12 steps and undo... but if they move 7 steps and commit, they can not then move the remaining 4 steps with an undo that places then further back than step 7.


*Perhaps you mean that the player might repeat the action until the NPC misses onon their attack?  That would indeed be an exploit if allowed, but I think (or would hope) that it might be trivial to repeat the same attack roll for that action every time during that turn.


**I just tested Death Knights of Krynn, and in that game, the guard attack doesn't happen again, after an undo—but its damage is never undone, so it wouldn't have to.  It does seem exploitable if it then doesn't happen to other NPCs that approach on their turn. (I didn't check for that)

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2017, 06:21:25 PM »
I guess what I'm saying is that it would be easy enough to exploit.  If you risked the move, but ended up having a character wounded, you could just roll it back.  However, that defeats the purpose of having taken the risk in the first place.

What is to stop a player from doing this continuously until the monster misses or the damage is less? 
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Offline Mechanaut

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Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2017, 06:49:24 PM »
I guess what I'm saying is that it would be easy enough to exploit.  If you risked the move, but ended up having a character wounded, you could just roll it back.  However, that defeats the purpose of having taken the risk in the first place.
I don't see it as a risk. AFAIK, any hostile NPC that approaches, (but does not reach) the PCs... end their turn with Guard; unless it's not an option.  So you cannot use this to test if the opponent is guarding before closing on them. Undoing a move is just that. Many, many times I have accidentally tapped a key that moved the PC too far, or not in the intended direction; especially when playing on laptops.  The undo feature allows one to correct mistakes.

So long as the NPC re-arms their guard attack after an undo, I don't see how it could be exploitive to undo the accidental damage from that attack. Undoing a move is effectively having it never have happen, so retaining the injury from something that never happened, always seemed kind of bizarre to me.

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What is to stop a player from doing this continuously until the monster misses or the damage is less?
I mentioned this in the post above. If allowed, that would be an exploit; but if the attack repeats (exactly) during that move... if they had hit them before, they'd hit them again.

**One plausible exploit of this is that by being able to see the damage, they can decide whether or not to keep it—or undo; not cool. That would let them choose (after triggering the Guard attack) to attack with sufficient remaining hitpoints—or to retreat (with undo, as though it never happened) if they don't have enough to survive the melee.

That could be the reason that the games don't undo the damage. (Was this your point as well?)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 07:08:33 PM by Mechanaut »

Offline Paul R. Stevens

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Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2017, 07:42:19 PM »
Quote
I have accidentally tapped a key that moved the PC too far, or not in the intended direction

I suppose that chaos on the battlefield invites such mistakes.  I can
only suggest that you participate in further training classes so that
you can minimize your errors when they can be deadly.

But more to the point.........I think anything we do is going to
be extremely minimal.  We might be able to return a combatant
to his original cell.  Unless, during his travels he has caused
another combatant to occupy his cell.  (Ye olde teleport defense,
for example.)  But I don't think we will be able to undo any
side-effects of his movement.  We would have to checkpoint the
entire game!

Offline Mechanaut

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Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2017, 01:34:41 AM »
Unless, during his travels he has caused another combatant to occupy his cell. 
This shouldn't be a possibility. I meant it specifically as the Gold Box series already implements it.  Nothing moves (position) during the PC's turn, except the PC*; and the undo only works to revert their position until the player commits their move. In certain GB games where 'Move' must be selected, the undo works until Done is selected.

From the FRUA reference card:


 


*But of course this could change if knock-back effects are added to Dungeoncraft.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 03:08:58 AM by Mechanaut »

Offline Paul R. Stevens

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Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2017, 10:04:41 AM »
Quote
This shouldn't be a possibility.

What is impossible in the Gold Box games might be possible in Dungeon Craft.
That was the primary reason for producing Dungeon Craft.

For example, we allow designer scripts to run during gameplay.
I don't think it is reasonable to ask designers to create scripts that
are reversible.  That is a difficult task and very difficult to test
thoroughly.

At any rate, even FRUA appears not to 'Un-Do' side effects of
the movement when 'taking back the move'.  That is what I was
suggesting might be possible in Dungeon Craft.  Might.

Offline Mechanaut

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Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2017, 10:25:50 AM »
Is there any reason at all that an opponent NPC would (or ever should) change location during the player's turn? (...or while they are moving their PC?)



Quote
At any rate, even FRUA appears not to 'Un-Do' side effects of the movement when 'taking back the move'.  That is what I was
suggesting might be possible in Dungeon Craft.  Might.
As was I; ESC behavior, as per FRUA.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 10:31:46 AM by Mechanaut »

Offline Paul R. Stevens

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Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2017, 10:35:29 AM »
Quote
Is there any reason ... an opponent NPC would ...change location

Are you asking me?  Eighty percent of the features of
Dungeon Craft are unneeded in my view.  Including
the feature you have requested.  We will have
to let someone else decide if they want the capability
of moving combatants during combat.

Having said that, I can envision of the following:

A 'Hammer Breathing Weasel' might have the capability of
stepping back out of melee range when an enemy
approaches, thereby forcing his opponent to corner him
into a position with no escape.  Have you played
"Dungeon Master"?  That is exactly how you must corner
"Lord Chaos" in order to win the game.

Offline Mechanaut

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Re: Guarding attacks after movement
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2017, 01:57:44 PM »
I asked for it because that's how FRUA works, and DC seems to have a lot of effort put into emulating FRUA. 
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 02:29:08 PM by Mechanaut »

 

anything