Author Topic: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?  (Read 997 times)

Offline Kaz-Keith

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2017, 08:40:57 PM »
At first, I wondered where my posts went... and then I recalled that there are two of these 'reluctant-FRUA-player' threads.
http://ua.reonis.com/index.php?topic=3579.msg51357#msg51357


I posted a similar opinion in the other one, and am also one who has followed DC's progress since the beginning... and never designed with it.  Hopefully that's going to change soon, with the advent of the next one-week challenge; though I've not decided which to use yet.

Yours was one of the opinions offered that was high in mind when I was replying that, Mechanaut :)

Offline Kaz-Keith

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2017, 08:47:06 PM »
I think maybe you've read too much into Ben's comments, Kaz.   :(

I saw them as nothing but constructive. 

It's clear from the fact that DC has been given such a large part of this forum that Ben is a big supporter.    :)

I can appreciate where you are coming from Hans but I don't really need your opinion of what my opinion might be?  Obviously I disagree about the 'constructiveness' of Ben's post/s and it is -quite- due to his larger than any other member here's presence on these forums that I give his opinions and views much more weight.

He voiced his frustrations with DC in the FRUA-side post, and here where DC is asking for ways to ENCOURAGE, he is pointing out/linking and simultaneously shitting all over a very poorly-chosen example of the DungeonCraft output.  I am asking why? Why use that example as his answer on how to resolve DC's question, and then I followed my question with possible reasons and my reactions to those.

I get that you might want things to be nice and keel but sometimes things just are bumpy for reasons.  I would also appreciate you not answering for someone else that I am obviously upset enough to directly confront in the forums like this.  I care for protocol and I admit my respect for Ben is about used up but cmon. We are all adults.  He can certainly own his own words, at the least.

Offline Dinonykos

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2017, 12:09:11 AM »
I regard all posts in this and the related thread as constructive, so thank you all. The last thing I wanted when I started this thread was a kind of conflict, I wanted to know what we DC users can do to attract FRUAites to play DC designs. And I think all of these posts helped us to have some ideas (updating modules, writing reviews, improving the "default" art...)
One way to make DC more attractive (I mean playing modules) would indeed be more short modules, as indicated by the recent one-week challenge. I think many of us DC users are somewhat working on the one, epic design for years, which is good but keeps the number of playable designs low.
Perhaps either joining the next one-week contest or having one focused on DC module (but also with the restriction to do short module in short time) might be a good idea, and may also result in eliminating some bugs or seeing what art is needed and so on.
Find four contributions to the Pre-Generated Character Mini-Module Design Contest on my homepage.
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Offline Mechanaut

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2017, 12:35:13 AM »
About the face of Dungeon-Craft: (Only just to suggest what such a—promotable— face could be...)


About three and a half years ago, a group of us modders were enthralled with 'Legend of Grimrock'.  A bunch got together and made a community mod. The premise was that everyone (regardless of skill with the engine & scripting) could contribute to the endeavor.  Everyone was to make one map that took them a week; and each map was to be 9x9x3 tiles in the game  (yes that's nine steps wall to wall), and optionally multi-floor. This meant that one could have stairs up & down to one's other floors. Structurally this is similar to adhering to a 9x9 tile region in DC & FRUA.   It also meant that it was a mixed bag; but you had to know that going in to it.


The first of these was well received, well enough to make a second one soon after.  The player explored their way through the various rooms, solving the puzzles, combats, and experiencing the various stories of each.  I was part of the second endeavor; 'One Room Round Robin #2'. In this one there were twenty two designers, we had about 75 rooms; (22+ 'rooms', with 1-3 floors each).  Ages of the designers ranged from nine to forty(plus). The players were cast into a kind of a prison from which they had to escape. Each room was almost it's own realm within the complex; (one room was an outdoor city with trees). Things could behave very different between rooms; and the maps ranged from using just the vanilla game assets, to incredibly scripted custom 3D environs. There were new Monsters, new Spells, new Props, and the maps were so dense that a 'room manager' script had to be wriiten that actually erased most of the other rooms on the floor, besides the one the player was actively exploring... and it restored the room they went to next; erasing the one they had just left.  This was a nightmare, but it worked, and it raised the frame-rate from slide-show, to comfortably playable. 


The reason I mention this is that the experienced modders helped out the less experienced; and as it developed... there was a core group among us that debugged the entire dungeon room by room, to make certain everything worked as expected; and helping those that needed help implementing things that they didn't understand how to do. We ensured that no one's room could break anyone else's. The project's lead then went over the map and tied it all together brilliantly with some thoughtful interconnections between areas, and inspired usage of the remaining empty space. As expected, some designers had dropped out, leaving un-made rooms in their reserved spaces.


We built a nine story dungeon (filled with custom assets, and custom game mechanics), that kept the player's attention, and had them eager to break through to the next upper floor.  In the end, I'd argue it was as good—or better than the official campaign; and we uploaded the full source project for the mod, for anyone interested in modding the game to learn from it. 


Now imagine having something like that done for Dungeon-Craft. To have an (hopefully exemplary) example of just what can be done with DC, by people with the most experience using it, alongside those that want to gain more hands on experience.  The best thing about such a project is that everyone involved was anticipating playing it. No one knew all of its secrets, or really what to expect until they got to play the finished design.


Practical concerns were of asset limits. Grimrock mods have to be 98MB or less to host on Steam (Grimrock engine limitation). There were only so many textures, sounds, and meshes that could be included; and that was divided among all. Everyone had 3MB; though those who used less than that allowed for others to exceed their limit just a bit.  I don't know the limits for DC, but the same thing could be done with it.  ORRR2 was a hub-design. A DC design could mimic New Phlan, and everyone involved makes a side quest for it in a week.  Not unlike a dozen authors writing short stories that happen in the same town, around the same time, with criss-crossing characters. Or for that matter...unlike Grimrock, DC has a vast overland map, where numerous side quests could play out.


_____
*For anyone interested, here is a let's play of the 'One Room Round Robin II' dungeon adventure (to skim through):
 (Played by Komag, a Grimrock forum moderator) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxkJxhHBoUQ&list=PLFIC3sNUZhGjDfZXdVFNhV55ubUbq7BDm

**And the project's forum page: http://www.grimrock.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6453
(Yes... It took us over a year to design ORRR2; more than double the time we estimated.)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 12:57:45 AM by Mechanaut »

Offline Uatu

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2017, 08:25:29 AM »
Lots of great input all around - definitely food for thought in how to make DC more appealing (to the rest of the world!).  Thank you all for your opinions, it is very helpful.
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Offline Paul R. Stevens

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2017, 11:25:44 AM »
I think that a newbie arriving at our forum could be
very confused and overwhelmed.  I know that I would be.
New versions of everything - art, engine, editor - appear
on an almost daily basis.  Perhaps what is needed is
a top-level thread named something like "Getting Started"
or "For Beginners".  It would consist of links to complete games,
a link to a complete and (almost) empty game with editor,
a sort of FAQ, pointers to available documentation, and a place
to post newbie questions.  We would have to take it upon ourselves
to keep the links up-to-date.  And resist the temptation to add
more advanced topics.  Keep it simple, Stupid.

At least it would provide an obvious starting point for someone
who just tuned into our forum for the first time.   DC is easy to 'install'
if you can obtain a complete zip file.  People have become
accustomed to 'Installation Procedures' and can be a bit surprised
by a program that requires no installation. 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 12:01:01 PM by Paul R. Stevens »

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2017, 01:58:57 PM »
I can appreciate where you are coming from Hans but I don't really need your opinion of what my opinion might be?  Obviously I disagree about the 'constructiveness' of Ben's post/s and it is -quite- due to his larger than any other member here's presence on these forums that I give his opinions and views much more weight.

He voiced his frustrations with DC in the FRUA-side post, and here where DC is asking for ways to ENCOURAGE, he is pointing out/linking and simultaneously shitting all over a very poorly-chosen example of the DungeonCraft output.  I am asking why? Why use that example as his answer on how to resolve DC's question, and then I followed my question with possible reasons and my reactions to those.

I get that you might want things to be nice and keel but sometimes things just are bumpy for reasons.  I would also appreciate you not answering for someone else that I am obviously upset enough to directly confront in the forums like this.  I care for protocol and I admit my respect for Ben is about used up but cmon. We are all adults.  He can certainly own his own words, at the least.


Not sure what has you so upset.  The point of my post was pretty straightforward:  DC needs good advertising and bad advertising is detrimental.  You admitted yourself that you had no idea what state DC was currently in, and I chalk that up to lack of information.  If those videos were your only experience with DC, your reaction could be negative.


No offense was intended.  If you took offense, there's little I can do about it, since my post was neither malicious nor intended to stir controversy beyond the "not everyone uses DC in a great way" variety.  I didn't demand that the videos be taken down or that the module shouldn't exist, only that it wasn't a great way for someone to be introduced to DC, and that possibly this could be counteracted by positive reviews of DC modules in order to balance the scales.


The module designer can certainly create whatever kind of module they want.  Doesn't mean I have to like it, nor does it mean I have to give it a glowing review, and I certainly didn't.  Nobody is trying to censor anyone's creativity.  If that were the case, Harri Polsa would have long run into that barrier, and he's a designer I greatly admire despite not agreeing with his inclusion of X-Rated materials in his modules.  I was sure you knew me better than that.


If you see anything beyond this in what I posted, then my assessment is that you are misreading what is there.  I can't offer more than that, and I won't apologize for attempting to help the DC community, even if you disagree with my approach.


In the end, I hope this is something you and I can discuss in a healthy manner and not become a sticking point between us.

I am and will always be a firm supporter of DC.  You can look through these forums and find tons of questions, feedback and even testing help done by me over the years. I have even donated quite a lot of handmade art to DC.  I don't think my complaints about any of it should be considered as negative, given that I want DC to succeed.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 02:12:15 PM by ProphetSword »
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Online manikus

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2017, 02:46:40 PM »
I think everyone has said something recently in thread except me, so....
"something." ;)

There are lots of different things talked about in this thread. I find all of them interesting. I don't know if I would go as far as Dinonykos and say it's all constructive, but, as Uatu said, it is all food for thought.

I think a lot of players are also designers. I think Dinoykos wants to know what we can do to get more people to play the designs made in DC. If by chance through playing awesome DC designs, someone (perhaps already a FRUA designer) want to make a DC design, that is a really nice added bonus.

I think that Paul's idea is something that would be a nice featrue to have in the community and either mirrored or linked to in the Help documents. I am starting to work on this already.

A one week DC design contest would be great. Does anyone volunteer to run it/ You will have my full support. 8)

I really like the idea of videos of gameplay to show-off some of the great work being done. I will make some. I just have to find a good vidcap program that I like. I've found some really nice ones that purport to be free until you install them and then they have a free trial that only allows 2 minutes with a watermark. I don't begrudge them making money off of their software, I just wish they would tell me before I install an drun it.

Offline Mechanaut

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2017, 03:11:45 PM »
I just have to find a good vidcap program that I like.
Open Broadcast: https://obsproject.com/

It's what I use when FRAPS doesn't cut it.

Online manikus

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2017, 04:01:08 PM »
I just have to find a good vidcap program that I like.
Open Broadcast: https://obsproject.com/

It's what I use when FRAPS doesn't cut it.

Cool. :) Thanks. I will give this a try an done I just found called camStudio..

Offline Kaz-Keith

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2017, 09:05:14 PM »

Not sure what has you so upset.  The point of my post was pretty straightforward:  DC needs good advertising and bad advertising is detrimental.  You admitted yourself that you had no idea what state DC was currently in, and I chalk that up to lack of information.  If those videos were your only experience with DC, your reaction could be negative.

Huh? Why did you say this and then text me that message then? why even text me at all? I have asked you to stop that before and here we are again.  I don't want to get into this in the forums but I guess we don't have a choice?  We talked about getting help before which I endorsed at the time and still support it.  I don't know what that burning blue thing is but please stop this.  Just I don't know if you are trying to provoke me but why say this here like you did and then say something totally different in text?  This is starting to really really get to me.

This has been going on for far too long and I am going to just ask you to stop doing it.  Please.

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2017, 10:33:31 PM »

Not sure what has you so upset.  The point of my post was pretty straightforward:  DC needs good advertising and bad advertising is detrimental.  You admitted yourself that you had no idea what state DC was currently in, and I chalk that up to lack of information.  If those videos were your only experience with DC, your reaction could be negative.

Huh? Why did you say this and then text me that message then? why even text me at all? I have asked you to stop that before and here we are again.  I don't want to get into this in the forums but I guess we don't have a choice?  We talked about getting help before which I endorsed at the time and still support it.  I don't know what that burning blue thing is but please stop this.  Just I don't know if you are trying to provoke me but why say this here like you did and then say something totally different in text?  This is starting to really really get to me.

This has been going on for far too long and I am going to just ask you to stop doing it.  Please.


Ummm...okay. I literally have no idea what you're talking about. I haven't texted anyone and I don't know what the blue thing is you are referencing. Was this post meant for this thread?
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Offline Kaz-Keith

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2017, 11:27:10 PM »
you just texted me at 9:04p pst that same verse from Leviticus.  I don't think I can do this anymore with you. if you are serious about resolving this then you can call me or skype me.  at this point we are just spamming this poor thread.

Offline Olivier Leroux

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #58 on: August 02, 2017, 03:42:18 AM »
(I still play!  Hey Olivier!)

I haven't played in ages, might have lost my original login, too.  :( Out of curiosity, which server(s) do you play on?

Offline Kaz-Keith

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #59 on: August 02, 2017, 10:21:40 PM »
I build an dm on a few for forgotten realms cormyr and savage frontier and amia and play on the forgotten realms.

edit sorry Olivier I mean to say I build and play I stoped dming years back sorry also there are action servers I play on like aventia and even the rebuild of rich's richterm original campaign.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 01:42:21 PM by Kaz-Keith »