Author Topic: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?  (Read 828 times)

Online Dinonykos

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2017, 12:45:04 PM »
I think you are right, Manikus. I remember I several searched for "Dungeon Craft", "FRUA" and related keywords in Youtube and never found that video, so it is probably not the first thing one will find when he/she looks for Dungeon-Craft related stuff.
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Offline Olivier Leroux

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2017, 04:21:14 AM »
I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say that while the racist stuff and troll humor in this module is pretty offputting, on the technical side it doesn't seem to be that different from most other DC modules that are currently available (always excluding the work of Dinonykos). It actually seems like the author put quite a bit of effort in it. The graphical inconsistency is a general issue in most available mods, this author decided not to take it so seriously and instead go wild. IMO it does show a lot of creativity, even if in a screwed up way. Among the vast number of FRUA designs, there are quite a few spoof mods with crazy inconsistent graphics and silly pop culture references as well. I think the problem is not that this module is out there and that there are videos talking about it, but that we don't have much to show for what else could be done with DC (again, apart from Dinonykos' work). If there was a significant number of good DC modules with much variety, the existence of this particular troll module  wouldn't matter at all. The problem is that there is not, since hardly anyone else has created something worthwhile with it so far. 
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 04:23:03 AM by Olivier Leroux »

Online Dinonykos

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2017, 05:46:43 AM »
Thanks for the kudos for my designs. I would also mention Manikus' "Academy" (even if it is regarded as a demo) as a project which shows what DC can do, and the graphics are also consistent. But I think that also "The Lesson" and several other designs are quite good concerning story telling, setting etc., they could only need some new graphics.

In this context, I had already thought about transferring "The Lesson" to DC 3.x and replace some of the walls and other graphics to have more consistency. I would like to give it a try, and I guess Manikus and Paul would be interested in this, too.

Would that be all right with you? It might at the same time be a good test if upgrading of DC 0.914 designs to the newest DC version works in general. I assume that you have not used many scripts, logic blocks etc.? (Since it would perhaps be better to start testing this with something "simple".)
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Offline Olivier Leroux

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2017, 07:52:12 AM »
Thanks for the kudos for my designs. I would also mention Manikus' "Academy" (even if it is regarded as a demo) as a project which shows what DC can do, and the graphics are also consistent. But I think that also "The Lesson" and several other designs are quite good concerning story telling, setting etc., they could only need some new graphics.

Yeah, but "The Lesson" and "The Academy" are merely demos, and as I mentioned in another thread, the download link for "The Academy" isn't working anymore, so unless it can be downloaded from somewhere else (can you point me to it?), I don't consider it "available". (Btw, when I say "demos", I don't mean to say "not worth it", but I don't think you can draw in many players with the promise of modules like these; apart from a few passionate community members, I mean. Many people outside of the community already shun custom modules and prefer "real" games, I don't think playing a short and somewhat unfinished custom demo would be very attractive to outsiders.)

As for "The Lesson", the funny thing is that I'd judge it completely different. I didn't think it had great storytelling, while I thought the graphics were quite alright the way they are, with what limited resources I had to work with. But if you think you can improve them, sure, go ahead. Just make sure to mention that the new version was enhanced/modified by you.

I assume that you have not used many scripts, logic blocks etc.? (Since it would perhaps be better to start testing this with something "simple".)

It's such a long time ago, but I did that thing that allows you to replace walls a few times (is that logic blocks or something else?).
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 08:01:02 AM by Olivier Leroux »

Online Dinonykos

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2017, 08:00:28 AM »
It's such a long time ago, but I did that thing that allows you to replace walls a few times (is that logic blocks or something else?).
I see... but the logic block function concerning changing walls should work  in DC 3.x (I think it did not in an earlier version, but Paul fixed it), if not, it would be good to have working anyway.
I did not see "The Lesson" as a demo, but rather as a short design. :)
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Offline Olivier Leroux

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2017, 08:04:05 AM »
I did not see "The Lesson" as a demo, but rather as a short design. :)

Well, in any case it's a fragmentary, open-ended design with a makeshift story that only serves as an excuse to tinker with the editor. At least from my perspective.  ;)

Offline manikus

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2017, 01:53:06 PM »
Let me say off the top, that I completely agree with Olivier's examination of the "video".It is obvious that the person put a lot of effort into their work. Which comes to the other point that we don't have any counter example videos, because aside from Dinonykos's work, there aren't that many designs, certainly not ones that differ largely in looks or mechanics from the "video" (by looks I mean disjointed styles). That is because as any FRUA designer could have told you 15 years ago, making a good design is hard work and can be quite time consuming. This is why you don't have a bunch of designs from Uatu and myself, among severl others.

The Academy DEMO:
I have been trying to track down the archive. I don't know where it went on the Sourceforge site, or why it isn't in one of my repositories (online or offline). I suspect that I didn't keep it in my main work area because it was only a snapshot of an ongoing project. I thought about redoing it, but was so apalled at the art that I won't release another version until I can improve the looks. But, if I do find the archived demo, I will re-upload it.
However, I did find Rami Sihvo's "Border of Darkness" and put it back on the Sourceforge site (and updated the post to remove the "not available" bit).

Updating designs:
I have done a lot of this. I have tried, at one point or another, updating all of the designs made in .914 to the current (at the time) version of DC. I did some of this last weekend.
Step 1:   change the design folder to the new structure. Steve McDonald made a bacth file that does
          this for you - _____
        If you just want to do it yourself:
            -make a "Data" subfolder
               --put all DAT, LVL, TXT, and Bass.dll here.
              --put a copy of AI_Script.BLK here (attached to this post)
              --if you did not modify your configt.txt (now in the Data folder), replace it with
                the one attached to this post (we've added quite a few things since .914)
           -make a "Resources" subfolder
               --put all PNG, BMP, PCX JPG, MP3, WAV, MIDI, and AVI in here
           -if you have a Save subfolder, rename it "Saves"
               --if you don't have one, make a "Saves" subfolder

Online Dinonykos

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2017, 02:16:21 PM »
Manikus, I am not sure if you mean you do not have a copy of "The Academy", if so, I have one.
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Offline manikus

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2017, 03:40:08 PM »
Manikus, I am not sure if you mean you do not have a copy of "The Academy", if so, I have one.

I do not have one. Can you email it to me? Or post it somewhere with a link/ (Whichever is easiest.)
Thank you. :D

Offline SilentThief

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2017, 02:53:44 PM »
When asked why FRUA users would be hesitant to play DC modules, there are many reasons...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8lQHpyin5wU[/font]

facepalm....

got to laugh at the spell choice though (at the 4:11 mark, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lQHpyin5wU&t=4m11s) LOL

ST

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2017, 11:08:57 AM »
We are discussing the possibility of running a One-Week Challenge again on the FRUA boards.  That's not what I'm here to talk about, though.

Have you considered running a DC Design Challenge aimed at getting FRUA users involved in building and completing their first designs?
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Offline Kaz-Keith

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2017, 02:01:25 PM »
Just saw this thread and I wanted to pipe up, even if a bit late to the teaparty:

This is just speculation, but i suspect there are three main factors (whih doesn't account for each players personal preferences).
1)   DC is not advertised in the FRUA forums very well, if at all. (Nor any place else, either.)
2)   Nearly all FRUA players who have not poked into the DC part of the forums don't think DC is done and/or that it can not create designs like FRUA in style.
3)   Many FRUA players do not like the way DC looks at one, several or all parts.

 Manikus, your speculations prove correct as far as this FRUAite/tentative DCer: aside from adverts or the magical realm of getting-the-word-out, I am guilty of being one of those who has half-followed DungeonCraft's iterations since the Cocoa Spud days and a FRUA-based natural dislike for the open borders of the abilities of the program, artwork included.

 FRUA's limitations are something that I, as a pseudodesigner, need... -crave-... and there is something inherently threatening about being able to use any graphics, a vast amount of walls, changing things on the fly, Doing Anything With Anything that makes me shiver and run for the safety of FRUA's pixelated cage.  I've been an Ironworks member since forever, mourned the loss of Ziroc's precious nwn Undermountain mod, etc. and so I am familiar with yourself and others who are working with DC here.  I totally respect what you are trying to do (especially all the thankless hats that Paul must find himself having to don and doff, all the time) and what I am saying here isn't out of fear of the new or unknown but out of knowing the sheer time it took to become familiar with the ins outs and whatsitabouts of FRUA and just not having the gumption to muster up tackling another project engine.  NWN gave me much the same reaction... loved what people were able to do with it... I even scripted and built for servers in my time not to mention play (I still play!  Hey Olivier!) and dm (hee!) but I just couldn't bring myself to build my own gameworld... if you know what I mean.

 I'm not saying I can't learn to appreciate DC as much as I do FRUA, but there won't be a magical game release or coding announcement or feature zot that's going to make that happen for me.  My laziness dc is formidable... FORMIDABLE.

 I will add that I've played 2 DC offerings now (one was Olivier's tastingmod and one was Dinonykos' March 2017 7-day Challenge entry) and I enjoyed the heck out of both of them, for different reasons, which has made me want to sample more and Try Things Out.  Obviously, you guys working for and with DC are loving what you are doing and that is something that we all can relate to and appreciate.

Offline Kaz-Keith

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2017, 02:20:30 PM »
I would feel sorry for any FRUA user (or a non-FRUA user, really) whose first experience with a DC module was a semi-racist, toilet-humor based garbage module that does nothing to showcase any of the strengths of the engine.

You guys put so much love into the engine, and that particular module shows none of it.  Are there any reviews of good DC modules available on YouTube?  Would anyone like to do one?  Perhaps posting "Let's Play" type videos of some of the better modules or video reviews could help.

You can find a video showing play of that particular module here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUJYqsfsaHg&t=70s

I'm not sure that's the best face for DC out there.

Sometimes I let things quietly go by and not say anything but maybe shake my head a little.

This will not be one of those times.

I am down with not liking something, even with criticizing the relative value of something in light of its faults, but this is not okay with me.  I'm not at all sure that this is the sort of response that the DC crowd was seeking with this post:  -this- youtube video footage of a game someone made with the DC engine is not what's wrong with your post Ben.  It's not for the DC crowd to assume responsibility for this and accept that this might be a reason why people aren't flocking to DC to try it out or to mod for it or support it in the barest way.  This is you holding up a sample of DC work and saying both that it misrepresents DC and that you find it objectionable for whatever reasons.  I guess I am wondering how this in any way at all serves to either reinforce your personal position on DC or answers the question of To DC or Not To DC?

First, if you had even the slightest inclination to investigate this 'semi-racist, toilet-humor based garbage module' you would see that the author notes at several points that this is a joke game he made for his 4chan buddy to make fun of their personal between-them 4chan memes.  He even says in the description, do not download and play it it isn't for consumption.

Second, even had this 'project' been submitted here to the DC forums for play and/or feedback, what grounds do any of us have to judge something from a point of moral focus? If the goal was to spread a new profanity, to be racist, even to just be puerile and unimaginative, it would have been legitimately successful.  I trust that with a view such as the one you've presented and others have acquiesced to, there won't suddenly be a rating of all past present and future projects of any kind to hold up as a point of objection or subjection, and if there is, when will this censoring begin and how fast can I delete anything I've ever uploaded?

Third, it isn't whether or not we find something foul that would land us for or against something like DungeonCraft... that falls to us as the individuals who would use, view, share, build with or otherwise enjoy the benefits of DungeonCraft.  The negatives, like crappy pointless junk games, speak for themselves.  I would submit that we ought focus on the plethora of positives we already enjoy: a network of communication to breed our community, a forum for that community to express itself openly (and hopefully without fear of reprisal, editing or censorship) and a database to house the efforts and basis for our respective game editors.

Fourth, even a casual searching on YouTube proffers a large range of DungeonCraft (non-minecraft-related, heh) articles and videos.  I wonder why none of these drew your interest as they would have served the point of this original post much better than that.

Maybe you had a bad day, maybe I'm going to catch flak for calling you out on this one particular thing but dammit- you, out of all us here I would wager, should understand what it is to be misrepresented.  I just don't get it.

Apologies to anyone offended by this or otherwise frustrated.  I am a human, Ben is a human, and I just want to understand this instead of internalizing my own frustration and negativity about this particular issue.

Offline hans

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2017, 07:57:08 PM »
I think maybe you've read too much into Ben's comments, Kaz.   :(

I saw them as nothing but constructive. 

It's clear from the fact that DC has been given such a large part of this forum that Ben is a big supporter.    :)

Offline Mechanaut

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2017, 08:04:56 PM »
FRUA's limitations are something that I, as a pseudodesigner, need... -crave-... and there is something inherently threatening about being able to use any graphics, a vast amount of walls, changing things on the fly, Doing Anything With Anything that makes me shiver and run for the safety of FRUA's pixelated cage.


At first, I wondered where my posts went... and then I recalled that there are two of these 'reluctant-FRUA-player' threads.
http://ua.reonis.com/index.php?topic=3579.msg51357#msg51357


I posted a similar opinion in the other one, and am also one who has followed DC's progress since the beginning... and never designed with it.  Hopefully that's going to change soon, with the advent of the next one-week challenge; though I've not decided which to use yet.