Author Topic: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?  (Read 836 times)

Offline Dinonykos

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Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« on: July 10, 2017, 07:23:44 AM »
I had a discussion with Olivier lately if FRUA-Users are reluctant to play DC designs. For several of my own modules I could understand that they are not played, since art style and setting are quite different from "standard" AD&D games.

But it seems to me that also "T1- The Village of Hommlet" by Nol Drek and "The case of stolen Masterpiece" by Uatu and me have not really aroused interest although they have quite classic settings.

Is it just my impression that DC designs repell FRUA-Users or is it true, and if so, what can we do about this?

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Offline Paul R. Stevens

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2017, 02:40:02 PM »
I do not believe that it is your imagination.  I believe it
is quite true.  I have opinions as to why it is true but
I hope some die-hard FRUAers will speak up for themselves.
My opinions are necessarily only guesswork.

Offline SilentThief

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2017, 05:14:38 PM »
Might be better to ask in the FRUA forum, as the dungeoncraft - general forum might not reach the designated audience:

http://ua.reonis.com/index.php?topic=3579.new#new

ST the hopefully helpful

Offline manikus

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2017, 01:39:57 PM »
This is just speculation, but i suspect there are three main factors (whih doesn't account for each players personal preferences).
1)   DC is not advertised in the FRUA forums very well, if at all. (Nor any place else, either.)
2)   Nearly all FRUA players who have not poked into the DC part of the forums don't think DC is done and/or that it can not create designs like FRUA in style.
3)   Many FRUA players do not like the way DC looks at one, several or all parts.

The first one is all me. I have created all kinds of groups and pages to advertise, and it's all for people outside of the forums, because I post in the forums for the forums. ;)
The second one is somewhat related to the first, but is more about what dC can do. I don't know how Paul and I could be more clear about what DC does, if I could, I would. Considering that a fair number of DC enthusiasts in these DC forums have a hard time understanding what Paul and I say, I'm not surprised.
The third point is all on the FRUAite. Uatu has enough art to do designs using only his work and I would think that FRUAites would think this was a good fit to the GoldBo style. (Not to mention that Dinonykos has enough of his art to do a very full design of matching graphics.)

Please don't read any of the above as a critique of anyone but me.

Offline Olivier Leroux

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2017, 03:33:13 PM »
Might be a good topic for a poll, too!

Offline Olivier Leroux

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2017, 04:06:48 PM »
Anyway, my guess is:

1) Lack of (variety in) modules
which is always a tricky problem at the start of a modding based game; more modules that demonstrate quality and variety can inspire more users to create their own designs with DC, which will result in more and more varied modules and so on. A great number of people creating modules probably also makes the game look more attractive to others, too, while seeing just a couple of "demos", will make most people think that the editor either isn't that good/powerful or that it isn't finished yet. As long as there is this lack of DC modules, there is also a lack of interest in creating more DC modules which results in a lack of DC modules etc. A vicious circle that's hard to break, especially with such a small community ...

2) The same as Manikus' #2 - I keep forgetting myself that DC isn't in a beta stage anymore; I'm not sure whether I've ever had a look at 1.0 even, and I believe DC is 2.x by now? (Then again, I haven't messed with FRUA anymore either, for a very long time; too few spare time to distribute between too many games, TV series etc. )

3) Designers already know FRUA, feel comfortable enough using it so that they don't have to spend much time with the technical side of things anymore; while DC would be completely new to them, a new editor they'd have to learn to use, experiment and get familiar with, and it can be intimidating. I'd assume many just prefer to stick to what they know.

4) Nostalgia / love of pixel art, which makes FRUA closer than high resolution DC to what these players love

5) And this is about my own uninformed prejudices - personally I think it's much harder to create something with a consistent look in DC. In FRUA the graphical restrictions also lead to everything looking kind of similar, even if you don't puch much effort in it. In DC you can use the most awesome, detailed, high resolution graphics combined with the most ugly low quality, maybe pixely stuff and there are worlds between them, giving it an inconsistent look. The available graphics seem very different in style, too; e.g. Dinonykos style is great, uatu's style is great, but you can't easily take what you like from each one and combine it without it looking weird. - Again, this is coming from someone who hasn't looked at the available graphics anymore for a long time, and hasn't played the collaborative effort of Dynonykos and uatu yet, so take it with a grain of salt, maybe things have changed a lot during the last years. But it's probably still true to a certain degree; in FRUA combining art from different artists is a bit less problematic.

6) There's always the possibility that people download and play DC modules but don't give feedback on whether they played them and how they liked them.


I wonder, if FRUA designers could somehow be convinced to take part in an experimental one week challenge or so for DC, where the greatest challenge would be to work with an unfamiliar editor and make the best of it.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 04:17:45 PM by Olivier Leroux »

Offline manikus

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2017, 01:41:18 PM »
Anyway, my guess is:

1) Lack of (variety in) modules
It is certainly a bit Catch-22.  I hope that we get more collaborations between Dinonykos and Uatu, which are more traditional AD&D which I think some folks would be more inclined to try.

3) Designers already know FRUA...
I was hopeing that our work on importing FRUA designs, possibly even some of the hacked designs, would solve this problem. But, there have been two different people who have worked with Paul and they left before we got it done.
I just put this at the top of the "to do" list.

5) ...it's much harder to create something with a consistent look in DC...
Um, yeah. Though Dinonykos has done a lot of work on making a good portion of his wall overlays compatible with Uatu's walls. The place, I think, where we really lack the consistency is in small pics and big pics. There are three styles and not a one really goes with either of the others. There are a large number of small pics that Ziroc made that are very FRUAesque, but I have not added to the default art because of copyright issues. (totally okay to use in my opinion, but not something that should be part of the "official" download.)

I wonder, if FRUA designers could somehow be convinced to take part in an experimental one week challenge or so for DC, where the greatest challenge would be to work with an unfamiliar editor and make the best of it.
I am certainy not opposed to this, but I think that we probably need to address some of the art issues before this would really have much of a chance.

the points i didn't respond to, well, they were pretty clear and I agree with them, or hope they are correct. ;)
Thanks for your input. It's given me something to put some food for thought and a guide for some of my effort.

Offline Olivier Leroux

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2017, 07:00:20 PM »
Oh, something I didn't mention and which I don't think is at the heart of this problem, but maybe worth mentioning all the same, is that the older available DC modules don't run on Win 8 (and maybe newer versions) anymore. If I try to start my own design, The Lesson, it immediately stops working once the title screen is loaded. From Dinonykos, I hear that this isn't a problem with newer modules anymore, but a lot of modules on the list of available DC modules are affected by it, so I guess a certain percentage of potential players couldn't play these anymore (without hassle), even if they wanted to. I believe it's also not that easy - if possible at all - to upgrade the old modules to a newer DC version, is it?  :(

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2017, 07:29:53 PM »
I was hopeing that our work on importing FRUA designs, possibly even some of the hacked designs, would solve this problem. But, there have been two different people who have worked with Paul and they left before we got it done.


If you're talking about people who were reporting issues with conversion and you're talking about me, I never left.  The conversation just came to a stop and it didn't continue.  Had anyone asked, I would have been more than happy to continue helping.  At the point where I stopped, I think all the events were working fine.


The conversion of my module only stopped due to the aesthetics of DC not matching my vision, the tediousness involved in getting things that should be simple to work as expected in DC and my becoming involved in another project.


I answered the question about why I don't play as a player on the FRUA forums, though, so I won't cover it here.
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Offline Dinonykos

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2017, 09:55:16 AM »
Not sure if it's too late to do so, but maybe we can combine both discussions (this thread and the one in the FRUA General Category), or, if not, slightly alter the title of one of the threads? I guess SilentThief was right that it makes more sense to move the discussion to the General Forum.

Concerning Olivier's question:
I believe it's also not that easy - if possible at all - to upgrade the old modules to a newer DC version, is it?  :(
I am sure Paul and Manikus aim at complete "upgradability". There were some issues inbetween with logic blocks, which made me afraid of trying to upgrade my own designs, but I think Paul has solved that problem.

I think though that the module authors should do it, last not least to check if everything works the way it should. I will give it a try, perhaps with "Fiend's Ritual" first.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 09:57:33 AM by Dinonykos »
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Offline manikus

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2017, 12:15:02 PM »
@Olivier:
I use Win 8 and 8.1 and haven't noticed this, but if is likely that I have not tried to play older designs recently enough to have noticed. If you provide me links to the specific ones you mean, I will try them and loop Paul in on this issue.

@ProphetSword:
You were not one of the persons that I was referring to. :D I am not sure where we stand on it, but i will make it my business to know and get this going again and put it at my top priority.

@Dinonykos:
i agree with you about updating modules. there are a couple of designs where I believe the creator has left the community, and I will try and contact them to see if they mind if I update them (I am thinking of the mods by Rami Sihvo).


Offline Olivier Leroux

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2017, 03:38:43 AM »
@Olivier:
I use Win 8 and 8.1 and haven't noticed this, but if is likely that I have not tried to play older designs recently enough to have noticed. If you provide me links to the specific ones you mean, I will try them and loop Paul in on this issue.

I'd assume that it concerns all designs on the module list except for two of Dinonykos' latest ones, but I haven't tried them all yet. One that definitely doesn't work on my Win 8.1 rigs is my own design.

I just made three checks with other designs, and I have the same issue with Friedrich's Quest and Rise of the Insectoids. ("The Mystery of Filos" I couldn't test because it seemed to be missing the executable and I didn't want to put more effort in it right now.)

I'd be willing to try and upgrade my own design to a newer DC version if I'd know how it's done and if it isn't too time-consuming and complicated.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 03:48:06 AM by Olivier Leroux »

Offline Dinonykos

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2017, 05:44:29 AM »
Hotel California might also work in Win8 (I think Nol used a newer version of DC, not 0.914 or older), and, as Olivier mentioned, Case of the stolen Masterpiece and Ambassador's Letter. As written above, I will try to import Fiend's Ritual to DC 3.x and re-upload it afterwards.
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Offline Olivier Leroux

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2017, 10:58:14 AM »
Yes, Hotel California works on Win 8.1. Although there's a different (less serious, but still a bit annoying) issue with the modules that work, in that if I run them in fullscreen mode, occasionally elements from desktop windows openend in the background flash up for a second.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 10:59:59 AM by Olivier Leroux »

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Are FRUA-Players reluctant to play DC designs?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2017, 12:41:20 PM »
Yes, Hotel California works on Win 8.1. Although there's a different (less serious, but still a bit annoying) issue with the modules that work, in that if I run them in fullscreen mode, occasionally elements from desktop windows openend in the background flash up for a second.


I am having this issue as well with all the modules I attempt to run.  The main window of DC cannot be seen because whatever else is open flashes over the top of it constantly, making it impossible to interact with anything. 


I'm running 64-bit Windows 10, updated to the most current version.  Has anyone else noticed this?
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