Poll

How should I handle the bard?

Max fighter levels, max thief levels, then bard
1 (20%)
Max fighter, min thief, then bard
3 (60%)
Min fighter, max thief, then bard
0 (0%)
Min fighter, min thief, then bard
0 (0%)
Middle fighter, middle thief, then bard
1 (20%)
Some other combo
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 5

Author Topic: Bards in Dungeon Craft  (Read 958 times)

Offline manikus

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Bards in Dungeon Craft
« on: November 23, 2016, 01:03:00 PM »
 +I'm adding bards to Dungecon Craft. In first Edition AD&D, bards start off as fighters, then becomes a thief, and then trains as a druid (at which time they are actually a bard).
Specifically, once the PC has reached level 5 as a fighter, but before they become level 8, they switch classes to become a thief.
T + hey change to bard between 5th and 9th levels. I honestly think that they meant for the fighter to be 5th through 8th...because there are 23 levels of bard listed (8 + 9 23 = 40)

But maybe that is just a coincidence. Maybe not.

That is why I am asking...

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Bards in Dungeon Craft
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2016, 03:02:14 PM »
Is there a reason why you don't create the Bard according to the 2nd Edition AD&D rules, which made the class it's own separate thing?
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Offline steve_mcdee

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Re: Bards in Dungeon Craft
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2016, 04:21:23 PM »
I certainly think it would simplify things to make the bard a class you just choose at the outset.

Offline manikus

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Re: Bards in Dungeon Craft
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2016, 04:21:45 PM »
Is there a reason why you don't create the Bard according to the 2nd Edition AD&D rules, which made the class it's own separate thing?

Yes. Default DC is 1e.

I am doing a FR 2e set, and bards are already done for that. :)

Offline manikus

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Re: Bards in Dungeon Craft
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2016, 04:26:11 PM »
I certainly think it would simplify things to make the bard a class you just choose at the outset.

You will in DC - but for the first five to eight levels, it will be exactly as a fighter, and the next five to nine levels will be exactly as a thief.

I could script something so that a PC could be a fighter than a thief and then asked at a Training Hall event. But it would not be plug and play, so to speak.

Offline Milos Gulan

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Re: Bards in Dungeon Craft
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2016, 10:24:27 AM »
I am not sure how to vote, because I never had used 1e bard and I don't know in which book it was explained. I have read about 1e bard in Wiki only here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bard_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)

I am using 1e PHB and DMG revised by Chris Perkins. In it there is Bard class and Bard spells (page 15 and 68 in PHB), though I am not sure from which source they are taken and it seems a lot different then 1e Bard You are talking about and to be honest I am curious to hear what You think about it :).

You can download books here:
Direct link to the PHB: http://www.adnd3egame.com/documents/phb.pdf
Direct link to the DMG: http://www.adnd3egame.com/documents/dmg.pdf
And here is the link on DF about that: http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=49186

Edit: Ok I have think about it and voted for 1st option. My opinion is if You are doing anything it should be as in the books, so I think it would be the best to go like that. I don't mind having different versions of bard too, only that it states which version is that, if it is 1e, 2e or any other custom version of it. Same goes for rangers and other characters that may be a bit different.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 10:39:54 AM by Milos Gulan »

Offline Nol Drek

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Re: Bards in Dungeon Craft
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2016, 08:04:56 PM »
I voted for:

Max Fighter, Min Thief, then Bard

...taking the PHB literally that the switch to Thief must happen before attaining 8th level as a Fighter (although I'm sure it's a typo as you suggested).

Fighter Level 7 (because Bards always attack as the highest level Fighter they attained and the attack matrix is the same for Fighter 7-8)
Thief Level 5 (because I want characters to get into being a bard as early as possible, and the advantages of having 4 extra levels of Thief are not as great as the advantages of having 4 extra levels of Bard)

F7/T5/B5 is better at Level 17, in my opinion, than any of the other options.
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Offline manikus

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Re: Bards in Dungeon Craft
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2016, 01:22:44 PM »
Milos, those are third edition - not going to look at them in regards to DC.

Nol, you make a valid argument. I think I will change my vote. :)

Over the long weekend, two other options occurred to me...
1) make bards NPC only, then this is all kind of moot.
2) start the bard as 1st level bard, ignoring the fighter and thief requirements and giving an appropriate number of hp and other statistics to make it seem like the prelims were done. This would be greatly unbalanced.
2a) like 2, but without the prelims, this would be awfully home-brewed (I am not opposed to this in general, but maybe not for the default databases)

Offline Milos Gulan

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Re: Bards in Dungeon Craft
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2016, 03:23:31 PM »
My opinion is that it should be a PC class. I think it would be ok if possible to start with Bard Lv1 and also with multiclass Fighter/Thief until I guess F7/T5. This might be a home-brewed also but my thinking is that guard is Fighter Lv2 and Captain of guard Fighter Lv4 (usually) and Bard should be able to start with some casting options. Like Priest and Magic user having Orisons and Cantrips, maybe bard could do something bardic from the start and not have to wait till his Fighter/Thief leveling up is done.

If not then it should be like in the books :)

Offline manikus

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Re: Bards in Dungeon Craft
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2016, 04:24:15 PM »
I don't know what orissons are, but clerics and magic users do not have cantrips in DC.

The "bard" qualities before they actually become a bard? Why that's called role-playing. ;)

Offline Milos Gulan

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Re: Bards in Dungeon Craft
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2016, 08:38:49 AM »
:) Yes well, my group had Unearthed Arcana, I am not sure if we ever used any cantrips but I remember that we talked about them (or maybe we used them once but I can't remember that and I was spellcaster), and here is about them and Orisons http://www.frontiernet.net/~jamesstarlight/CantripsOrisons.html

They can be useful on low levels I wish I knew how to add them :), and for bard yes, I couldn't think of anything better :/

Offline manikus

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Re: Bards in Dungeon Craft
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2016, 02:03:32 PM »
Magic in DC and the GolBox games is largely about combat, including preparing for and recovering from. Cantrips cannot do  harm to anything, so not terribly useful, other than to waste a caster's time. ;)

Offline Nol Drek

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Re: Bards in Dungeon Craft
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2016, 07:23:57 PM »
I don't know what orissons are, but clerics and magic users do not have cantrips in DC.

The "bard" qualities before they actually become a bard? Why that's called role-playing. ;)

Orisons are level 0 prayers, the Cleric equivalent of a Cantrip. I think they were first introduced in 2nd edition. They are, like Cantrips, mostly useless.
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Offline Milos Gulan

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Re: Bards in Dungeon Craft
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2016, 09:02:01 AM »
I think they are first introduced in Unearthed Arcana as cantrips too. There was one 1Lv spell only for all of them in 2e but later I think that changed too, but I am not sure.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 09:08:41 AM by Milos Gulan »

Offline manikus

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Re: Bards in Dungeon Craft
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2016, 01:35:31 PM »
Unearthed Arcana has cantrips for magic users and illusionists.
2e PHB has  the lvl 1 cantrip spell for magic users. The Tome of Magic hasnothing further for cantrips.
Orisons do not appear in any of these books, so that likely means they are 33+

 

anything