Author Topic: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...  (Read 11116 times)

Offline Nol Drek

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2013, 01:59:47 PM »
With races & classes, if necessary, I could translate the Japanese words into English, and (if I go full Chinese) then translate the English word into Chinese. 

I would much prefer, however, to find a good equivalent from Chinese folklore, rather than just do mechanical translations.

Flying Swordsmen RPG:
http://www.rpgfiles.org/users/lordgwydion/Flying%20Swordsmen%20RPG.pdf

Flying Swordsmen RPG suggests the following character classes:
Fighter: Martial Artist, Weapon Master, Mystic Bowman, Guardian
Wizard: Taoist, Yang Magician, Yin Sorceress
Shaman: Ancestral Medium, Demonist, Animist
Thief: Outlaw, Ghost Hunter, Vagabond

One Upon A Time In China:
http://www.heroic-cinema.com/eric/index.html

Cathay Arts of Role-Playing by Leonard Hung (via the wayback machine):
http://web.archive.org/web/20070206034449/http://physics.hkbu.edu.hk/~lhung/caorp.html
"Into the Drachensgrab Mountains!"

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Offline hans

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2013, 03:55:26 PM »
Flying Swordsmen RPG:
http://www.rpgfiles.org/users/lordgwydion/Flying%20Swordsmen%20RPG.pdf

Flying Swordsmen RPG suggests the following character classes:
Fighter: Martial Artist, Weapon Master, Mystic Bowman, Guardian
Wizard: Taoist, Yang Magician, Yin Sorceress
Shaman: Ancestral Medium, Demonist, Animist
Thief: Outlaw, Ghost Hunter, Vagabond

One Upon A Time In China:
http://www.heroic-cinema.com/eric/index.html

Cathay Arts of Role-Playing by Leonard Hung (via the wayback machine):
http://web.archive.org/web/20070206034449/http://physics.hkbu.edu.hk/~lhung/caorp.html
 

Thanks, Nol! 

These, indeed, should be helpful!   :)

Offline hans

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2013, 10:52:05 AM »
On the subject of priest classes, in finding a substitute for Shukenja, or perhaps Sohei, I like the term Wuyi. 

"Wu and yi are compounded in the word wuyi "shaman-doctor; shamans and doctors", translated "exorcising physician" (De Groot 1910), "sorcerer-physician" (Schiffeler 1976), or "physician-shaman" (Mainfort 2004). Confucius quotes a "Southern Saying" that a good wuyi must have heng "constancy; ancient tradition; continuation; perseverance; regularity; "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_(shaman) 

I like that it shares the woo of Wu-Xia and Wu-Jen. 

I was put off of Mu-Shi for priest after learning the many possible meanings of Mushi, including a German slang for a vagina.   :confused3:

Offline hans

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2013, 08:03:07 PM »
As a replacement for Yakuza, I'm thinking about using "Hui." 

One of its meanings can be for "secret society" as in "triads" and their historical antecedents.  "Hui" can also be translated as "member," so the word seems to encompass the closest equivalent to the Japanese "Yakuza." 

A Wuxia can be a member of a secret society or not, in Chinese fiction and folklore.  Whether they are, or not, a Wuxia still follows their own sense of righteousness and justice. 

So, by having both Wuxia and Hui classes, a mod could have a story where the Wuxia is part of a secret society during part or all of the adventure, but they still stand out from the rank and file of that society.

Offline hans

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2013, 09:01:47 PM »
I believe a good addition would be Fangshi ("Magico-technicians").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fangshi 

Considering the space restrictions, I may then go with:
"Fangshi" to replace Shukenja, and "Wuyi" to replace Sohei.  Their wide uses in Chinese literature provide enough flexibility that some version should fit well within those particular slots. 

BTW, after this parallel researching, I think that the Wu-Jen is a composite of Wu for "shaman or shamanistic magic" and Jen, a lesser used alternative of Ren, meaning "person."  I've not seen the composite outside of OA, but that doesn't mean it never appeared in some writing on China or Taoism.  Only the originator of OA would know for sure. 

Offline hans

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2013, 10:50:14 PM »
Continuing thoughts on Classes...

Wu-Jen, Monks, and Barbarians should carry over into a Chinese-ier version of OAUA.  (The Mongol-like Barbarian class should be even more prevalent on the continent.) 

And now I think I have solid ideas for replacements to Samurai (Wuxia), Yakuza (Hui), Shukenja (Fangshi), and Sohei (Wuyi). 

That leaves Bushi, Kensai, and Ninja.  Here are the angles of my current thinking:

The Ninja replacement needs to carry the same thief-like SPECABs logic.  (Should go with a Chinese thief or go more specific, like an assassin class...or maybe spy...?)   

The Kensai replacement must, likewise, have a convincing reason for carrying over its prohibitions against armor & magic weapons.  (A scholar class might have sufficient Confuscian disdain for those things, but so might a hermit, whose single-minded motivation of perfecting his martial arts would more closely parallel a Kensai's philosophy...) 

Then I need a broad class (almost a catch-all) for fighters that don't fit into the other fighting classes.  I would like it to encompass fighters of high to low stations, military, ex-military, or civilian.  Bushi would seem the natural candidate for this change, presenting me with the only real restriction of needing a five-space, or less, replacement. 

I think I will need to find a replacement term for the "Kiai" power, too...but what?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 11:24:17 PM by hans »

Offline Milos Gulan

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2013, 04:01:10 AM »
It seems to me You are doing a very nice work :read2: I wish I could help a bit but I don't know much about the subject, but I am very interested to see the final result and a good explanation about all classes and other things used. Just one thing that i found interesting and it is from this song I liked http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KJ87QEPPCs and here it is more about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nam%28u%29_My%C5%8Dh%C5%8D_Renge_Ky%C5%8D

Offline hans

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2013, 09:53:38 PM »
...The Ninja replacement needs to carry the same thief-like SPECABs logic.  (Should go with a Chinese thief or go more specific, like an assassin class...or maybe spy...?)   
 

Since I'm trying to do a Chinese version of OAUA and not FRUA, I think I may go all the way with replacing Ninjas with no wimpy Thief or Spy but with full on Assassins. 

The Chinese would be Ci'ke (lit. "stabbing guests").  The term has been used in Asian pop culture for Ninja-like assassins, so it seems like a good rename.

Offline hans

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2013, 11:18:08 PM »
...The Kensai replacement must, likewise, have a convincing reason for carrying over its prohibitions against armor & magic weapons.  (A scholar class might have sufficient Confuscian disdain for those things, but so might a hermit, whose single-minded motivation of perfecting his martial arts would more closely parallel a Kensai's philosophy...) 
 

I think I'll use the simple term "Shi" which can be translated Scholar (a Confuscian scholar would generally keep a stand-off-ish approach to the supernatural).  "Shi" is also the Chinese chess equivalent of a bishop.  It implies noble qualities and sometimes fighting acumen, as well.  There is even a Scholar Sword called a "Wen Jian" which is a slightly shorter, and lighter, version of the normal Jian.

Offline hans

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2013, 11:45:20 PM »
For my Bushi substitute, I'm leaning toward using "Zu."

In Chinese chess, the pawn soldiers for the red side are called "Bing" while the ones on the black side are called "Zu."  Both terms are used outside of the game to refer to actual soldiers.  "Bing" is used more, but I'm afraid that it would sound too comical to Western ears (--and Bing-o is his profession-o). 

"Zu" can mean soldier, servant, or pawn, and is sometimes used in conjunction with other words: "shuzu" means a garrison soldier, for example. 

Plus, folks might make a connection to the groundbreaking wuxia pian (movie) Zu: Warriors from the Magic Mountain (1983):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGbsCiN3GqM
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 11:47:13 PM by hans »

Offline hans

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2013, 09:51:30 PM »
Okay, as Chinese is winning over English on the Pole, here's my tentative list of Race & Class replacements:
                                                    ;DRaces:
Human (unchanged)
Spirit Folk (unchanged)
Korobokuru --> Xiao'airen
Hengeyokai --> Dongwujing 
;DClasses:
Barbarians (unchanged)
Bushi --> Zu
Kensai --> Shi
Monks (unchanged)
Ninja --> Ci'ke      
Samurai --> Wuxia
Shukenja --> Fangshi
Sohei --> Wuyi
Wu Jen (unchanged)
Yakuza --> Hui

Offline Milos Gulan

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2013, 11:04:44 AM »
It looks good and i am amazed that all that will be available :) I haven't been playing much china style games but Silkroad is something like that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGhEDJu0MlM

Anyway hope to see it soon  :happy9:

Offline Uatu

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2013, 08:55:17 PM »
Hmm - my Chinese is not as good as my Japanese, but the above does sound awkward - although I do think that it is quite difficult to stick Chinese words to the Japanese ideas perhaps.

1. One-syllable words sound very general, and can mean many different things (hui means "meeting," shi means "servant/teacher/person," etc.).
2. If you want to follow pinyin spelling, then ci'ke -> cike, wu-jen -> wuren.

Perhaps you can just loosely replace Japanese class names with Chinese ones - for example, shukenja might be replaced by daoshi (Daoist priest), kensai might be replaced by jianxia (sword knight-errant), etc.  Sohei is quite cultural to Japan, and so may be difficult to find a good replacement...
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Offline Uatu

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2013, 09:09:33 PM »
Choosing good replacement names will be the first order of business. 

"Samurai" is clearly Japanese, for example, along with their swords, the "Katana" and "Wakazashi," so they'll be needing to be changed to something more Chinese, along with many other names. 

This topic intrigued me, so I did some internet research for the Chinese equivalent of "Samurai". The closest I could come was "Jidshǐ". One thing led to another and now I have some suggestions.

******** Chinese Names for Medieval Arms and Warriors ********

Jidshǐ (military governor)
D Dāo Hu (big sword society)
Zhung Sh (warrior)
Ji Xīng (knight)
D Xi (noble warrior)
M Shī (priest)
Wū X (wizard)
Do (thief)
Wǔ Sh (literally "Samurai")

Dāo (single edged sabre)
Qiāng (spear)
Gn (staff)
Jin (double edged straight sword)
Jǐ (halberd)
Gē (dagger-axe)
Fu Tao (dual-wielded hook swords)
Biān (chain whip)
Chui (hammer)
Tonfa (baton with a handle)
Li Xīng (meteor hammer)

Kwan Dāo (polearm)
Yan Yu Dāo (polearm)
Shuangshou Dāo (two handed sabre)
Liuye Dāo (broadsword)
Da Dāo (two handed sword)
Yanmao Dāo (goose quill sabre)
Wing Chun (dual wielded butterfly swords)
Qing Bow (horn bow)
Manchu Bow (recurved bow)

Kai (armor)
Guijia (tortoise shell armor)

******** End ********

Just some comments on the above:

Wushi does not mean samurai, it is the Chinese reading of "bushi."  "Samurai" unfortunately actually uses the Chinese character for "servant"...

Hook swords should be shuanggou ("double hooks") or hushougou ("hand-protecting hooks") or even hutougou ("tiger head hooks").
Tonfa is an Okinawan word, I think - crutches are used in a similar manner in China (guai or guaizi).
Liuxing means just "meteor" - meteor hammers are called liuxingchui.
Kwan Dao should be spelled guandao (or guangongdadao ("Mr. Guan's big saber") or chunqiudadao ("spring and autumn big saber")).
Two-handed sword should be shuangshoujian ("double-handed sword") or shuangbajian ("double-grip sword").
Wing Chun is a style of kung fu, not a weapon - the butterfly swords are bazhandao ("eight slicing sabers") I think (but this may be a wing chun term).
Not sure what Yan yu dao is referring to.

Also, it may be better to use longer names for things, i.e.:
Qiang ("spear") -> Huaqiang ("flower spear," i.e. single-headed spear)
Gun ("staff") -> Qimeigun ("same-as-eyebrows staff," i.e. staff about as long as up to the eyebrows)
Ji ("halberd") -> Fangtianhuaji or fangtianji (a bit hard to translate, but the type of ji with an axe-like protrusion on one side)
Bian ("whip") -> this actually refers to whips and also hard, round things to whip with - Jiujiebian ("nine-section whip") may be better

Also - ge ("dagger axe") was a very ancient weapon (as were turtle shell armor) that were abandoned very early on (Shang, Zhou dynasties maybe?), probably because they were pretty cruddy :D

Anyway, just some suggestions, feel free to use/not use as you like...
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Offline hans

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Re: OA -- Japanese to Chinese hack...
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2013, 04:23:41 PM »
Hmm - my Chinese is not as good as my Japanese, but the above does sound awkward - although I do think that it is quite difficult to stick Chinese words to the Japanese ideas perhaps.

1. One-syllable words sound very general, and can mean many different things (hui means "meeting," shi means "servant/teacher/person," etc.).
2. If you want to follow pinyin spelling, then ci'ke -> cike, wu-jen -> wuren.

Perhaps you can just loosely replace Japanese class names with Chinese ones - for example, shukenja might be replaced by daoshi (Daoist priest), kensai might be replaced by jianxia (sword knight-errant), etc.  Sohei is quite cultural to Japan, and so may be difficult to find a good replacement...
 

I'm set on Wuxia ("martial hero") over other Xia compounds, like Youxia ("wandering hero") or even the simpler root Xia ("hero/knight/flying swordsman/ etc.").  Wuxia has long been the popular title for fictions featuring such a hero, including Wuxia Pian ("flying swordsman movies").  Long used in the East, its use has spread to the West, and it sounds really cool when Samuel L. Jackson says it. 

Shi and Hui are, indeed, general (especially without those little slash marks over them, which UA's limited font spaces doesn't leave room for), but that may prove beneficial to future authors (assuming anyone but myself ever uses the hack).  The looseness of Hui might make it a good class for first-level NPCs of a non-fighting profession (as a "member" of that profession, rather than the more common use as a secret society member). 

I've considered a variety of other terms than Shi for "scholar," including Ru-Shi ("Confuscian scholar").  Shi's meaning can be rather flexible in its many compounds, but it almost always carries the implication of gentlemanliness or nobility (in stature, if not blood).  So, by keeping the more general form, beyond scolars, it could be the right class for royal NPCs and high-ranking civil authorities. 

I rejected Daoshi when I came across it because (1) I don't want to explicitly inject a real-world religion into a fantasy world, and (2) daoist clerics seem, from my understanding, to have different titles strictly dividing male from female practitioners. 

Fangshi and Wuyi do not seem to suffer from the above 2 objections.  Their broad use through ancient Chinese writings gives the terms some legitimacy, while also providing flexibility.  I see that flexibility as important in that finding exact replacements for the Japanese cleric classes may be culturally impossible. 

In searching for good replacement names, I've been using multiple Chinese/English dictionaries (for much cross-checking) and numerous cultural, myth, and folklore sources.  I certainly don't claim to be an expert, however.  We've had at least several Chinese Fruaites among us, in the past, but, to the best of my knowledge, they're all long gone.  I could wish my old chum Simon Lai, aka Magician, was here to give me the benefit of his expertise.  Other than Wuxia, I'm still open to suggestions...