Author Topic: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)  (Read 918 times)

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2018, 07:31:40 PM »
We are probably in a similar boat there. I was also riveted by the scenes you mentioned. While I wasn’t completely underwhelmed by the ongoing space chase, I found the whole casino scene slow and pointless, even though I liked both Finn and Rose.


While I was okay with Poe being reckless, the lack of consequences kind of bugged me.
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Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2018, 10:08:19 AM »
Here's an interesting article that I found eye-opening...

http://mashable.com/2017/12/19/last-jedi-empire-strikes-back-haters/

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Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2018, 02:47:30 PM »
Star Wars: The Last Jedi has been the most divisive Star Wars movie ever.
 

I said that at the beginning of this thread based on these findings: 

http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/01/18/star-wars-most-divisive-movie-last-jedi-phantom-menace/

Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2018, 08:12:28 PM »
How I would revise the most important scene in The Last Jedi:


Kylo Ren has just stabbed Luke through the chest... 

The lightsaber is still in Luke's chest.  Kylo Ren's expression changes as he realizes Luke is not physically there, and his body's muscles relax slightly. 

In one, swift, arcing motion of his hand, Luke grabs Kylo's lightsaber from his grasp, and with his whole body following through with the motion, Luke spins 360 degrees around to slice Kylo's right hand off with Kylo's own lightsaber.  Kylo falls to his knees in agony, screaming a mix of pain and outrage. 

Luke's back is now to Kylo.  The camera focuses on Luke's face at an angle that allows Kylo to be seen wailing over Luke's shoulder.  Luke is holding Kylo's lightsaber straight up and close to his own face, so that his face has taken on a reddish, satanic appearance. 

Cut to General Hux, looking on from his Walker.  He smiles evilly, clearly hoping that Kylo will be killed, and so open the way to his own ascension within the First Order. 

Cut back to Luke, who turns back to the seething, still-(awkwardly)-kneeling, Kylo Ren.  Luke now holds Kylo's glowing lightsaber casually at his side. 

Luke looks down at Kylo's severed right hand and says to Kylo: "That is the hand that killed your father... That is the hand that killed my best friend, Han..." 

A look of apprehension, if not full-blown fear, crosses Kylo's face as he wonders what Luke will do next. 

Luke says, with a bitter edge to his voice, "I have no love for that hand."  Then Luke turns off Kylo's lightsaber and in a softer tone says to him, "but I have --always-- loved you, nephew."  As Luke speaks those words, his body trembles slightly, and many memories and emotions seem to flash across his face. 

Then, as Luke inhales his next breath, it is as if every pain of the past and every negative burden he has carried has been released.  He is perfectly at peace.  Luke smiles warmly at the again-seething Kylo and says, "I'm glad we had this talk." 

He drops Kylo's lightsaber near the severed hand and adds: "See you around, kid."  Then Luke walks off into a passing cloud of smoke drifting in from fires of the recent battles, and is no longer there when the cloud has passed by, only a brief moment later. 

Cut to General Hux whose face shows fierce disappointment as he orders: "Will someone please go out there and help our supreme leader to his feet--?!" 
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 08:14:42 PM by hans »

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2018, 07:41:06 AM »
If I were going to change any scene in the movie, it would easily be the scene of Leia floating in space.


Given that Kylo Ren didn’t pull the trigger to kill his own mother, it means he still cares too much about her. A better handling of the scene might have included Kylo seeing her and using his powers to push her back inside. This easily would have shown a great deal of conflict within him and added even more complexity and depth to his character. I feel they missed a good opportunity in order to showcase a cheap trick.


It is possible they had planned to build toward something with it in the next movie, but we will never know now that Carrie Fisher is dead.
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Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2018, 02:06:41 PM »
Here's my thinking on the changed scene I posted (a couple posts above). 

The point of the original scene, besides Luke buying time for the Resistance to escape, was to provide a new hope --a new legendary moment to inspire a new generation of rebels. 

So, IMO, having Luke humble the leader of the First Order in combat would be more effective than the "draw" of the original scene. 

Making Luke's exit more mysterious would also add to the legend (tho this is a much more minor addition). 

The second reason I would've had Luke chop off Kylo Ren's hand is the message it would convey.  Young Ben Solo must've heard about his uncle Luke's & grandfather Darth Vader's fight on the 2nd Death Star (from Return of the Jedi) many times.  Of how Luke cut off Vader's hand, and then saw in the similarity of their lost limbs a significance --a symbol of their similar life paths, which had taken Vader to the Dark Side, and which had led Luke to the brink of the same. 

Thus, the losing of a hand holds the symbolic meaning of turning away from the Dark Side.  A sign to Kylo Ren that redemption is still possible.  A reminder which would be Luke's final gift to his nephew. 

Since Luke couldn't harm Kylo Ren with his Force-projection-hologram lightsaber, I figured he would've needed to manipulate Kylo's own to do the job. 

Offline Nol Drek

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2018, 08:14:57 PM »
THE BIG LIST OF LAST JEDI CRITICISMS

Finn & Rose created their own problems by parking illegally.

I agree with this criticism. They might have been successful in their mission if they had been more stealthy and didn't draw attention to themselves by parking illegally.

On the other hand, being thrown in jail for illegal beach parking seems excessive. I would expect a fine, or for their vehicle to be impounded.

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Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2018, 09:40:34 PM »
...On the other hand, being thrown in jail for illegal beach parking seems excessive. I would expect a fine, or for their vehicle to be impounded.
 

Indeed.  On a casino planet, full of booze and devil-may-care rich people, you might think things like this would hardly raise an eyebrow.

Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2018, 10:55:05 PM »
Vice Admiral Holdo could've told Poe her plan and so prevent the later mutiny. 

Because, as we all know, high ranking military officers are in the habit of explaining their every action to low level subordinates who have recently been in trouble.  Happens all the time.
 

To expand that criticism a bit: She not only failed to tell her plan to Poe, but the movie never indicates that she told anybody else.  This, despite signs that there were serious morale problems within the fleet (re: the attempted desertions that Rose related to Finn).  Add the further fact that Poe was not the only mutineer. 

This does not mean that it is inconceivable that Holdo would act like that.  It is not a plot hole.  It does, however, carry some weight as a criticism of Holdo's leadership abilities.   

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2018, 07:05:19 AM »
Vice Admiral Holdo could've told Poe her plan and so prevent the later mutiny. 

Because, as we all know, high ranking military officers are in the habit of explaining their every action to low level subordinates who have recently been in trouble.  Happens all the time.
 

To expand that criticism a bit: She not only failed to tell her plan to Poe, but the movie never indicates that she told anybody else.  This, despite signs that there were serious morale problems within the fleet (re: the attempted desertions that Rose related to Finn).  Add the further fact that Poe was not the only mutineer. 

This does not mean that it is inconceivable that Holdo would act like that.  It is not a plot hole.  It does, however, carry some weight as a criticism of Holdo's leadership abilities.   




I merely addressed the exact criticism as presented. I have seen this same criticism on the Internet, and I get why Holdo didn’t trust Poe (and honestly, his mutiny attempt proves her right in this regard).


Like all things in this movie, Holdo was presented in such a way to make her appear in the wrong to subvert expectation and to set Poe up to fail (which I mentioned earlier was the theme of the movie). There are a lot of ways that we can fill in the blanks, and I think the movie encourages that. My friend, for example, believed that Holdo didn’t tell anyone because she suspected there was a spy aboard, which is how the First Order was able to track them. It’s plausible, I suppose.
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Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2018, 03:15:33 PM »
...My friend, for example, believed that Holdo didn’t tell anyone because she suspected there was a spy aboard, which is how the First Order was able to track them. It’s plausible, I suppose.

That's actually a popular defense for the criticism. 

The rebuttals to that defense, in turn, seem to come in one of the following forms: 

1.  The movie itself never says so. 

This rebuttal is not confined to that defense, either.  Quite a few of the criticisms I included in the Big List have been explained by the movie's defenders by pointing to information outside of the movie itself (often technical information, or sometimes histories contained in published Star Wars Manuals). 

Critics say that for a movie to need outside sources to explain important plot points demonstrates bad movie-making.  A movie should itself provide all information necessary to understand that movie.  --IMO, this is actually an excellent rule for any storytelling medium, including UA, and one that I very deliberately broke for my OA_OA mod "An Oriental Alphabet Primer."   ;)

2.  Given Poe Dameron's history (General Leia's best pilot, trusted with secret missions, leader of numerous Resistance military strikes, destroyer of the Starkiller Base, etc.) he must've had the equivalent of top secret clearance.     

3.  The cat would have to come out of the bag eventually.  At some point, Holdo would have to share her plan in order for it to be put into effect.  At that moment, the operation would be made every bit as vulnerable as it would have been if she had shared it immediately.  A spy could still have related the plan to the First Order fleet before it began, making the time element of when it was shared irrelevant.  In fact, as it turned out, the operation was exposed at almost the last moment despite Holdo's long silence, and required her hyperspeeded sacrifice to save the few surviving Resistance Transports.

4.  Holdo didn't need to explain the details of the plan.  Just assuring Poe and the others that there was a plan in place would have been enough.  She should have done that much, at the very least. 

...As folks can see, there has been much back-and-forth between critics and defenders on this issue.  It clearly has been one of the chief criticisms of the movie.  I think only the criticisms of the Canto Bight (the casino planet) sequence, Super-Leia in space, and the changes in Luke Skywalker's character have been more highly charged. 

And just to remind everybody: I don't agree with every criticism on the Big List (even if I might seem to be playing devil's advocate with them).  And it's not really my goal to change anybody's mind about the movie or any particular part of it.  Rather, I have posted this Big List with the hope that it would lead to some good discussions.  The Last Jedi is now one of the most widely seen movies in theatrical history, and so can make a great example: Star Wars fans are splitting over such storytelling elements as plot, structure, pacing, mood, characterizations, themes, tone, etc. --subjects which I love to bring up in this forum, as storytelling is an essential part of any CRPG.
 :)   
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 03:19:05 PM by hans »

Offline ProphetSword

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2018, 12:47:39 PM »
Here's the truth:

The movie purposely shows us Holdo from Poe's point of view, where we see her presented as "in the wrong," despite the fact that she isn't.  Poe then assumes that he has to be the hero and save the day...and that works in most movies that aren't trying to buck expectations.  In reality, this movie set him up to fail on purpose in the same way it set all the other major characters up to fail in some important way.

The problem we have with seeing Holdo only from Poe's point of view is that we're only given one dimension to the character during that window.  As the story with Luke and Kylo Ren clearly demonstrates, there are multiple sides to a story and how it can be perceived by the people involved.  We don't really see another side to the character until she interacts with Leia after the mutiny.  So it isn't revealed why she doesn't want to divulge the information to Poe.

In a standard Star Wars movie (or most movies in general), Poe's mutiny would have saved the day and he would have proven himself the hero "in the right" while proving Holdo to be "in the wrong."  But, "The Last Jedi" took great joy in destroying that expectation and surprising most of us sitting in the theater. 

I will repeat my point made earlier in the thread:  The narrative theme of this movie is all about heroes failing.

In a way, they kind of took this from "The Empire Strikes Back," a movie that also had a space chase, someone trying to find their destiny with the Force, a mystical tree and someone learning about their parentage.  In addition, "Empire" had the heroes failing.  Han Solo runs out of luck and gets frozen in carbonite.  C3P0's nosy ways gets him blown to pieces.  Han Solo fails to lose the trail of the bounty hunters with his clever maneuvers. Luke fails to defeat Vader.  Leia and Chewbacca fail to rescue Han in time.  Luke fails to heed Yoda's advice at both the tree and on not confronting Vader.

Who can forget this famous exchange:

Han Solo:
 You said you wanted to be around when I made a mistake, well, this could be it, sweetheart.
Princess Leia:
 I take it back.


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Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2018, 05:01:34 PM »
...And I like your idea about showing Snoke’s and Kylo Ren’s rise to power (and Luke fighting with them? and the Knights of Ren?) through flashbacks or something.
 

I heard someone on the internet say that Luke Skywalker couldn't have had a really good lightsaber battle in The Last Jedi because Mark Hamill was too old.  Ridiculous, of course.  Christopher Lee was even older when he played Count Dooku in the prequels.   :P 

IF I WERE WRITING EPISODE IX:


Luke would have that epic lightsaber battle with Snoke! 

In flashback, after Ben turns evil and the other Jedi students are turned or murdered, Luke decides he must chop off the current head of the Dark Side, and so tracks down Snoke.  Snoke would be played by --Hayden Christensen!!!  Snoke would be revealed to be a clone of Darth Vader that Palpatine had secretly had created after Anakin's near-death at the end of Revenge of the Sith

Yet, the clone was no immediate replacement for Vader, and Palpatine needed to keep the clone hidden from Vader.  So he had the clone raised and tutored by evil associates deep within the isolated Hermit Kingdom (where later would grow the First Order).  Thus, unlike Anakin, Snoke had no positive influences in his life, and so has no good in him.  He is pure evil. 

(This reveal would add new layers to Kylo Ren's reverence of Darth Vader, and his relationship to Snoke.)

Luke confronts Snoke for the most amazing, extended lightsaber duel ever put on film.  No cutting to other action, as previous movies have done, but just like 10-minutes-or-so of super-creatively choreographed excitement.  During this running battle, Snoke taunts Luke with such lines as "You cannot defeat me! --Luke, I am your father!"  Luke does defeat Snoke in such a destructive fashion that Hayden Christensen's good looks are deformed into the horrible visage we now know.  Also a defeat so destructive that Luke can easily assume that Snoke is dead. 

Luke, who has been seriously wounded himself, flees to Ahch-To (where it perhaps takes him years to fully recover). 

Back to present Star Wars day: Snoke is revealed as still alive, thanks to Hux!  Snoke is now a cyborg, more intimidating than General Grievous ever was.  He reclaims his place as Supreme Leader of the First Order and seeks revenge upon Kylo Ren.  Kylo narrowly escapes (perhaps losing that hand which I have wanted to see go).  The Knights of Ren, following Snoke's orders, are hot on Kylo's trail.  A hunted renegade, Kylo's only hope is for Rey to help him. 

I would save the ultimate confrontation between Snoke, Kylo, and Ren for the next movie.  Which would climax in a three-way lightsaber battle just as ambitious as the Luke v Snoke scene in this one.     
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 06:28:47 PM by hans »

Offline Olivier Leroux

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2018, 09:48:32 PM »
The title "The Last Jedi" was a misleading lie to the audience (a Star Wars first).

This is just silly.  Luke is the last Jedi.  Rey and Kylo Ren are not Jedi.  The movie goes to some length to make this clear.  They are something new.  They are powerful Force users, but neither of them follow the Jedi traditions...hence, not Jedi.

Can "Jedi" only be singular? I always thought the plural of "Jedi" was "Jedi" as well (which would leave the English title open to interpretation). Was I mistaken?

Offline hans

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Re: Big List of THE LAST JEDI Criticisms (Spoilers)
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2018, 10:14:38 PM »
The title "The Last Jedi" was a misleading lie to the audience (a Star Wars first).

This is just silly.  Luke is the last Jedi.  Rey and Kylo Ren are not Jedi.  The movie goes to some length to make this clear.  They are something new.  They are powerful Force users, but neither of them follow the Jedi traditions...hence, not Jedi.

Can "Jedi" only be singular? I always thought the plural of "Jedi" was "Jedi" as well (which would leave the English title open to interpretation). Was I mistaken?
 

That's actually been a point of some discussion concerning the title:
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/star-wars-the-last-jedis-title-is-plural-report/1100-6447984/ 
Technically, "Jedi" can be both singular or plural, although "Jedis" as plural is common enough, even among fans.

To another point, although Rey may not yet be a Jedi, the movie makes it clear that, if not yet, she will be:

Kylo Ren: "...I will kill the last Jedi!"

Luke: "Amazing.  Every word of what you just said was wrong... ...and I will not be the last Jedi."

Cut to Rey's face.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 10:20:01 PM by hans »