Author Topic: Unlimited Adventures - Exploring the Realm  (Read 10832 times)

Offline Ray

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Re: Unlimited Adventures - Exploring the Realm
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2010, 07:02:49 PM »

Hey, Bill,

You've definitely been quite persistent...and patient!  I have to admit that I would have quit long before getting this far, considering the experiences you've had.  I can't say your experiences are entirely unique, but you do seem to have every negative experience I've read about with one of my designs over the last decade or so, and a few brand new ones, to boot!  That's quite...well...I'm not sure impressive is the right word...

I feel for you; this sounds like an exorcise in abject misery.  While reading, I did have a few questions, though...and maybe some comments.  Perhaps this might help you be a little bit less frustrated in the future...should you ever decide to give it another whirl!

Couple things off the top:

1. Group Size: As you mentioned later, the game is definitely balanced for a party of six.  Sometimes NPCs will come and go, occasionally bolstering your ranks to eight, but each game expects that the group start with six.  A smaller group will definitely face more frequent TPKs, especially at lower levels.
2. Level Range: Most games have a "sweet spot" in the center of the range, considering a group of characters risen from first level in Realm games.  As mentioned above, this anticipates a party of six characters, and also some of the "big prizes," which are routinely won in the treasure hoards of the modules' big bads.  Reading through your experiences, I suspect that some of those were never reached, so even when experience and levels were won, the commensurate treasures didn't come along with it.  That would definitely create another imbalance!
3. Nol mentioned this already, but I'd definitely recommend a look at the Realm site if the mood ever strikes you to try again.  The site offers an order of play in each region, and a FAQ created based on a lot of the questions I've received over the last ten+ years.  Certainly, it's not necessary to play the games, but there are explanations of things like the LOOK vs. SEARCH controversy, I believe the AREA VIEW choices, and so forth.  The site can be found at: http://therealm.flopsyville.com/Menu.htm


Alright I'm playing a hacked version of Unlimited Adventures using the game: the Realm which itself consists of 40 games which were published modules.  I'll detail my experiences and TPKs here.  For entertainment purposes, generally the last lines from every party are most worth reading.

Thank you for investing so much wit into each party's demise.  I cringed with each one, but also very much appreciated the nod and wink that seemed to come alongside each one...

Next, the party hear about the Slave Lords and decide to go and try to help.  They somehow make their way to this island.  And go far to the left near this red stuff near a mountain.  Unfortunately it was lava, and all the party members died.

This really confuses me, because it sounds like your characters walked directly to the end of the game.  You seem to be very well-read in the classic modules, so I'm guessing you recognized A4.  What's odd about this is that the version of Game01 that I uploaded back in, oh, something like 1998 or something, had a bug that started the game there.  The first reviews came back rather ugly, and a bug-fixed version was quickly uploaded.  I have heard about this happening to someone in a looooong time! 

Do you recall how you got to the island so quickly?  Did you start there?  Did you walk there?  Even if you chose to walk past the landmark for A1, you should not have been able to get to A2-A4 until you doubled back.  I'm really confused by this one!

Party 3:

The third party taking the advice of the mighty gods decided to visit the South Realm instead of the East, being told that that land was ripe for young adventurers to gain power and fame to visit other lands.  On the first square, our adventurers were told about a far away island to stop a chieftan from messing up the Merchant Guild's trade routes.  Luckily though, our adventurers were given a place to buy weapons and armor and to sleep to memorize spells before the journey and there was much rejoicing!


You've got some brave adventurers!  The description included a level range again...these guys went anyway?  One thing that I'm sure you've found is that the adventures for levels 1-3 start with either a Shop event or a town where shopping can be performed.  The higher level adventures often skip those events for two reasons.  First, they're often unnecessary.  Second, almost every game in the Realm ends with a chance to train, shop and sleep.  It seems like the biggest problem these folks ran into was that they kept "escaping" modules and moving onto the next.  Palace of the Silver Princess, for instance.  Without getting to the end, there was no chance to rest.  The next game assumed that the previous was completed, and so resting at the beginning would have been redundant (and, back in the day, would have resulted in complaints from more than one reviewer...)

Party 5:
This party, determined not to suffer the same fate as the other 2 groups of adventurers decides to go to the island, and not use the quick combat option, but rather manually cast every spell and aim every ranged weapon.  Concentrated firepower will surely defeat those white apes!  But alas, the 4 white apes with multiple attacks are more than a match for a 1st level party, and thus this party becomes dinner on the Planet of the Apes.

Wow...Five parties in and still banging away at those apes with first-level characters.  You're a better person than I.


Notes:
1. I could have sworn that the game said that Drums on Fire Mountain was for characters levels 1-3, but apparently:  http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/dd/dd-x8.htm    the adventure was for characters levels 5-8.  Oops!

THAT explains it!!!  I've done the same thing, picking games from the Magic Mirror.  And sometimes those games were labeled as "Levels 1-3!"


3.  Morningstars are 2 handed here, but I thought they were one handed.  Regardless, I'll be using flails from now on.

If I remember correctly, morningstars in the Realm do a little more damage than those in standard settings.  I could be wrong, but that was a house-ruled thing.  When I originally made the "World Hak" (such as it is), I never dreamed I would share these games with other folks.  Well, maybe I dreamed it, but I was pretty sure I'd wimp out in the long run and just let them sit on my hard drive forever.  So, you'll find things in the Realm that fit the game I was playing back then.

4.  It would be nice if magic-users could select their own spells rather than having the same 4 assigned every time.

I so agree.  There is a program that you can download called CharEdit.  Works beautifully for doing just this.  You can even give yourself every spell in the game at first level, if you'd like, and never worry about scrolls again.  I haven't done that personally, but I have to say that I enjoy starting my "enchanter" with a Charm Person, and my "Invoker" with a magic missile...


Offline Ray

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Re: Unlimited Adventures - Exploring the Realm
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2010, 07:23:15 PM »
Party 7:
Anyway, we found a town that apparently had a Temple of Elemental Evil nearby, but we had a real tough time finding it.  We managed to convince a 1st level fighter and a 5th level thief to join our first level party.  Upon entering the territory of this "Temple of Elemental Evil" a couple of agents of chaos or whatever attacked our party.  Our new 1st level fighter buddy ditches us, but we win the battle.  Once we get back to town this below par intelligence fighter talks about how he got a sword from his brother and is 5th level with -1 AC, much better than the rest of the party.

I'vegotta admit.  It's a lot easier to conceal the NPCs stats in a live game.  A system like FRUA just doesn't do justice to the old, "I'm Traveling with Elminster in Disguise" trope...

Well, we get waylaid again by this evil fighter and his agent of chaos buddies in town.  We defeat them but have several party members drop to 0.  Apparently you can bandage buddies far away from you, and that's how no one died.  Again, we didn't have spells for this battle since I was travelling towards the inn to rest so that I could get my spells and that's why there were high casualties for this.

Interesting to hear someone say this...Back when FRUA a fan-favorite game, and it was cool to sit around and play with a bunch of friends, we used to have a "house rule" that you could only bandage someone adjacent to you.  We had lots of house rules back then.  We used to role play a little, and develop our characters through the games.  Having different designers function as "DMs" made for an interesting and varied campaign...that's for sure!


So after returning to the overland map we tried to enter white plume mountain to sell equipment, but couldn't for some reason (darn bugs), so we headed further south when a revenant paladin asked us to avenge his death against a Necromancer.  I really didn't want to refuse this revenant paladin cause he seemed so sad!  The adventure said for levels 2-4 and we had 6 level 1s and 2 level 5s, so it couldn't be too bad right?  Well, we fought an evil cook and won!  We also fought 2 wood golems and won!  When we got to the ornate Necromancer's door, he pretended to be innocent (be we doubted he was), so the NPC thief picked the door and we aimed to attack.

This was one of the times I wondered how you were going about these games.  If you leave one design to move into another, you would need to restart the original game if you were to return it.  Moving "Saved Games" from one FRUA design to another is a recipe for disaster, since most games start by setting certain quest flags to specific values.  So, the three quests to find Wave, Whelm and Blackrazer that are set at the beginning of White Plume Mountain may well be the variables that govern whether you've cleared the Hommlet moathouse, befriended Otto in Nulb and freed Zuggtmoy in the Temple of Elemental Evil design. 

If you aren't moving saved games but instead moving character files (per the documentation in UAShell), then you'll find that all your quests were reset when you return to Temple of Elemental Evil.  Effectively, the whole game will re-pop.  That's no big deal if you're never planning to return to the Temple, of course. 

I'm not sure which route you were taking, but some statements made me wonder a bit, because either will result in games behaving weirdly.  For instance, if you started a design before heading to the Slave Lords in Game01, then one of these quest flags could very well have opened the doors to the slave lords' stronghold!

Oh great, there isn't a one stop shop in this town.  So basically the party spent all night trying to find the right shop to buy ranged weapons, melee weapons, and armor.  The armor is cheaper here than other towns, but that doesn't excuse the annoyance.  Anyway when we were almost finished, we were railroaded into sleeping in a specific inn and waking up only to find this noblewoman complaining about demons in her basement.  We really didn't want to say no as we knew that would ruin the quest and destroy one of the few places in the world the party could gain xp and survive.

Like I said before, the Realm was deisgned to capture that sense of role-playing and moving through a live environment.  It's limited by the engine and, of course, by my creativity and limited artistic ability, but I did my best.  Over the years, things like this have divided some of the reviews, but it's largely been seen as a positive.  Lots of folks to go talk to, lots of places to check out, and a real opportunity to get the "lay of the land" before the chase sequences kick in later in the game, and you have to move quickly from one point to the next.  Definitely not for everyone's taste, but then...nothing really is for everyone's taste...

Also, I can't get upset by the railroading commentary.  That's how the whole beast was written...

However, when you enter the inn room, there is a one time Camp event that fires automatically.  If you hit "Exit," which is surprisingly easy to do, the game thinks you've finished resting and carries on.  Even while playtesting, I remember leaving that camp event before preparing my spells.  Not sure why, because hitting "Enter" does nothing, but it's awfully easy to do.


They promptly get surrounded, defeated and sacrificed to Kurtulmak.

Loved this statement, by the way. 

3. The Designer hates searching and hates sleeping.  Quite honestly in actual play I would sleep in the dungeon often.  Whenever the party searches,the Designer makes the player wade through scrolling text to try to dissauge them from continued searching.  This is silly though since the modules contain hidden items that you can only find by searching.  And yes, contrary to your words, the adventurers do have all the time in the world.

Yeah, can't disagree with this.  Searching strikes me as ridiculous, especially considering there is a Look feature in the game.  As a designer, I see no point whatsoever in carefully placing a secret door if everyone is going to play through in Search mode.  In Area mode, a secret door appears no different from any normal door, so a game allowing Search and Area effectively removes any need for me to put thought into the layout of my game.  For what it's worth, I play the way I design, meaning no Area mode and I try to Look rather than Search.  My greatest frustration comes from the reverse, designers who assume that everyone is Searching and so provide zero clues that would lead me to suspect the presence of anything special. 

I also strongly disagree with the notion that "adventurers do have all the time in the world."  I understand it's the difference between playing styles, but the Realm was created to generate a tabletop atmosphere.  I can count on one hand how many times players in my games have slept in a dungeon.  The logistics of it, and the imminent danger of bedding down in the deadliest spot possible rather than making a tactical withdrawal...It's has happened, but less than five times in the eleven-year campaign I'm running now, and about as many in the ten-year game before that.  The 1E DMG is loaded with additional reasons, from leeches to parasites to disease, not to mention the usual throngs of wandering monsters.  FRUA won't allow the majority of that; and FRUA's camp-encounter engine is horribly flawed, so the designer is left with two basic choices, either allow unlimited rest or allow no rest at all.

Offline Ray

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Re: Unlimited Adventures - Exploring the Realm
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2010, 07:30:19 PM »
These adventurers saved a small town from skeletons, solved the mystery of the Rock, and killed a few Brigands in specularum!  Unfortunately, they all disbanded and joined a tavern in Specularum and decided to drink and eat soup for the rest of their lives with all the excess gold from their journeys

This sounds awesome!!!

Party 12:
This party managed to solve the mystery of the rock, and promptly avoided the abandoned city upon hearing rumors that it wasn't actually abandoned.  The party went to Specularum, found out who enslaved people below the city, found out there names, found evidence linking to the crime, got confessions from co-conspirators,and slayed those who perpetrated the crime.  Apparently there was more to do, but the party couldn't figure out what, and the City Constable wasn't helping so they left.

Yeah, I've always thought that the designers who came up with the ruins of Tuma had some sadistic impulses.  Best to avoid the haunted city altogether...


Upon going outside the 2nd time, the party engaged in combat with this "misty" "ghosty" dragon.  Unfortunately this "misty" "ghosty" dragon had 81 hitpoints and breathed Lightning.  Half the party died in the first breath.  The other half died the 2nd breath.  And thus the party continued to haunt that house, for the shame they received while they lived.

This is the catch-22 of designing something like the Realm.  I don't know whether someone is playing a fifth level group or a twentieth-level group.  So I've tried to avoid things that say, "You All Die...So There!"  I touch on this in the FAQ over on the Realm site.  By the same token, the game was not designed for high-level characters in mind.  So, to balance it, I tried to give some clues...and then let the dice fall where they may.  Someone playing a high-level group would be sorely pissed if I told them they could not face the misty dragon thing and go home as they pleased.  On the other hand, someone playing a low-level group would be equally displeased if they were rendered to ash simply for walking through the door, no warning provided.  So, the middle ground I landed on was to divert the party arbitrarily the first time, with a description of what sent them running...and then stat out the "unstoppable monster"  if they went back anyway. 

Ironically, this is my best attempt at avoiding the railroading that was mentioned earlier.  A higher-level party could have killed the monster and gone about their business, no railroading involved.  For a lower-level party, they have it in their power to choose the means of their demise, or to go back inside and find another way home!

Notes:
1. For legitimacy, all characters were rolled not modified.
2.  Although its painful, hit dice were not altered
3. I know I should probably run away sometimes and fear for my life.  But that's hard when you have a reload option.

Agreed, on all three counts!!!

« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 10:46:37 PM by Ray »

Offline Ray

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Re: Unlimited Adventures - Exploring the Realm
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2010, 07:40:42 PM »
This party enter's a city which has a Raven's ruins nearby.  Unlike another city with Skeletons as a problem which offered 500 gold for killing a few skeletons and a hag, this city wanted us to enter a place full of traps, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, skeletons, zombies, ghouls, thouls, etc. etc. for a meager reward of 50 gp.

To say the least our adventurers felt jipped.

I hear that!  Different eras, different designers...vastly different economics!

Part 3
Next, the party found themselves in a city where golbins and other evil humanoids were already attacking and retreating.  An old Ranger showed us the way to the caves and how to get there.  Well, this place too was infested by humanoids, but we were told that there was *EEEVVVVILLL* in those caves.  Something dark, real dark.  The party goes there, slays several orcs and the chieftan and finds a passage down which is the source of the eeevil.  Apparently it was just more undead hidden away.  We find a Cleric of Chaos and his undead lackeys.  They were all promptly slain.  We find a scroll here which belongs to a dead wizard warning of a great evil queen. 

Part 4
We follow the trail to the dead wizard's house to find his relative, hosting it and demanding that we search the dead wizard's basement and get two items for us. We go down, slay several monsters.  Later on, our party automatically gets gassed by 2 amazon ladies.  We get no save while they ponder killing us and steal our gold.  They later leave, whereupon we find the amazons again, and slay them quickly.  We go to the top and are then told that we absolutely must go to this Ice Fortress where all these humanoids hang out as well as this Evil Queen and her evilness that will envelop the county.  We wonder why searching the bottom of the basement was necessary.  Funny thing though we promised this guy that we'd be back in no longer than 48 hours, but since we were given a gracious opportunity to sleep downstairs, we ended up taking 12 days.  Funny thing, in the caves of chaos back when we fought the cleric we were given a chance to sleep, but every time we slept (except once), we encountered infinite skeletons and zombies.  Obviously, the designer gods hate for the party to be sleeping.

Part 5
Our party railroads to the Icy North, and upon trying to go back, are told that we cannot!  For the evil of this evil queen is too great to turn back!  Who knows what a huge difference a few days in winter could mean!  The designer gods tell us that we may find an opportunity to sleep in the frigid north if we really need to.

Our party is warned by the designer gods that there may be a way to the fortress by being sneaky.  But all our party members are fighters, hardy fighters who have fought ogres, thouls, orcs, goblins, undead, and fought in a communist revolution in specularum, killing many footmen and mounted horsemen.  Our adventureres are afraid of no army!

We fight round 1 which consists of goblins, round 2 which consists of orcs, and round 3 which consists of the human fortress leader and his Gnoll crony archers.  3 party members fell in that battle, but no worry; their wounds were patched.  Our party tries to explore the fortress at the top, but apparently goblin archers hang up there and do railroad auto damage to our party members wearing full plate and great helms and knock out another party member, leaving total members to 2. 

Our party members leave the fortress, finding a cave to sleep in.  Unfortunately the designer gods decree that sleeping in caves is unacceptable, and the party goes back to the wilderness to find another place to sleep.  But along the way they meet a strange frost creature that can raise dead corpses to serve it as well as shoot lightning at the party.  Although the 2 members fought valiantly, they eventually decided to join the frost creature's crusade to turn all humanoids into frozen corpses.

Party 15:
This party like the previous one, fought the Frost Queen's fortress head on (she had very quickly hired new recruits to replace the last), but rather than try to sleep in caves, hoped to sleep in beds instead. Unfortunately although the Fortress Commander, Orcs, and Goblins all had rooms with locks in the fortress, this merry band of adventurers were unable to sleep.  The designer gods forbade that a party should want to sleep in a room with a bed and locks, and demanded that the party fight the Frost Queen immediately with half the party rather than sleep a few days and fight her with a greater chance of success.

This party saw another member go unconscious while fighting remaining humanoids in the fortress.  However, a caged Weretigress, Sarla was very eager to attack the Frost Queen and joined the party.

The party finds the queen, her wardogs, her Cleric cohort, and his zombie buddies.  This party tries retreating some bit back to a spot where fewer enemies can attack them.  Sarla, being an idiot (NPC) decides not to retreat to a more defensible location and decides to charge attack all the monsters by herself.  Unfortunately the wardogs and zombies defeat her quickly.  Meanwhile, while Allistaire II and Morgoth blast away Wardogs and Zombies with the Arquebus, the Cleric casts hold person and paralyzes our 2 warriors.  Our party members very quickly convert to the ways of Chaos and Undeath, and generously donate their Full Plate Mail and Arquebuses to the Frost Queen.

Party 16:
This party too fought 3rd recruitment of her main army and defeated it.  This party found the sister, Sarlaa, of the former weretigress.  This party also avoided fighting some monsters the previous party did.  This party advanced a little with Arquebuses while Sarlaa foolishly charged ahead.  This weretigress having more hp than her sister was able to DoW 2 zombie.  These 2 remaining fighters specifically aimed for the Cleric cohort, killing him so that he could not cast harmful spells such as spirtual hammer, silence 15' radius, or hold person against our mighty party of 2 fighters.

Back to back, our fighters defeated the remaining minions of the Frost Queen and the Frost Queen herself.  Hoping that all monsters would leave the Frost Queen's castle, our party members hoped that they would be able to rest for just 1 day, 1 day so that the other 4 members would be able to walk on their own, and not be dragged through the snow, but to no avail.  The party would have liked to search the treasury of the queen for its 11,000 gp but the party knew unless they could carry it all, that it would disappear forever.

Along the way, exiting to the wizard keep, Sarlaa, who lay dead at the Frost Queen's throne, suddenly appeared to the party and ran off.  The party was very confused, because they purposely did not bandage Sarlaa although they were given multiple chances to in combat, and certainly did not drag the weretigress with the rest of the party members.

The party returned to the Wizard keep and then to the main city of the adventure, hoping that they would be allowed to return to the Frost Queen's fortress to claim that 11,000 gp.  But the townsfolk quickly grabbed the party's maps and burned them.


This whole section made me think it would be awesome to play a "real" game with you.  Of course, you have something like 96 reasons to kill me on sight just in these few posts, so that may not be a very wise choice on my part...   ;)


2. Putting up text to discourage the party from searching is hypocritical since often many items can only be found by searching.  Also, many modules cannot be completed unless the party finds a few secret doors, and secret doors are revealed by searching

Nothing can be found only by Searching.  Look does the same thing in every case.  I've found that quite a few experienced FRUA gamers never realized this, even though it's a carry over from the Gold Box games that a lot of us fell in love with back in the 80s.  I'll never forget stepping into the stables in the slums of Phlan for the first time and thinking, "I wonder..."  I clicked Look and found a bag of treasure...My love of the game was cemented at that moment!


3. The designer really hates sleeping as evidenced above even when other creatures slept there.

Don't follow the logic on this one.  If goblins sleep in a place, it makes sense that their buddies know that they slept there.  So, if I'm beaten and exhausted and weak, the last place I want to spend the next six-to-eight hours is in the most likely place for things to come and try to kill me...

Granted, there are some situations where the monsters are all dead, and even I have become frustrated sometimes, but I've never been able to fathom sleeping in a monster's lair, unless it's the largest monster in the region and rules others by sheer terror.  And there are some lairs that say as much in the Realm, and sleeping is permitted there.

5. Once all party members have Full Plate.  There is little need to carry around gold any more.
6. My Arquebuses do around 11-20 damage, much more than the 2nd ed. PHB indicates as such, they're my best weapon.  There's also no misfire penalty or rules.

Both of these are products of those house rules I mentioned earlier.  We used the Mighty Fortress rules supplement for our firearms, and then adjusted those, slightly, to give the arquebus a bit more punch.  Of course, we play using Weapon Speed, and the balancing factor is the arquebus' Weapon Speed of 20.  FRUA incorporates the damage beautifully, but not so much with the slowness...

« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 10:47:59 PM by Ray »

Offline Ray

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Re: Unlimited Adventures - Exploring the Realm
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2010, 07:50:47 PM »
Part 1
Needing gold for 4 more Full Plate armors, the party set on adventure.  While sleeping one night the party received a vision from J'onn J'onzz, the Martian Manhunter, about the Kingdom of the Silver Princess which was in trouble from....something.  He went into this long story about how Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and Halfings all got along well in the kingdom, but the Gnomes did not.  Anywho, apparently bugbears, gnolls, and orcs are up to it again, and the land is dying, crops withering, the princess missing, this ruby missing, and J'onn J'onzz is happy to provide any help we require except direct combat support.


I'm so glad to hear someone else call the Protector J'onn J'onzz.  So glad...


Needing more adventure, the party members heard that there was still a great bounty on brigands, and now a year later!  The party was finally powerful enough to help the 2 cities that were offering a reward of 10,000 gold pieces.  The party set out to help, but like most adventures did not give the party any chance whatsoever to heal ahead of time before undertaking the quest.  But no matter!  Keldar had 37 hp which should have been plenty. 

Well, when wandering around the abandoned lot, an ankheg popped out and spit a gob of acid dealing 48 damage to Keldar!  48 damage!  The mionster manual says acid damage is from 8-32, but this ankheg dealt 48 damage!  To say the least, Keldar was completely incinerated and dead.


The only acid attack in FRUA is Black Dragon Acid, which deals the creature's hit points in damage.  Most of the ankhegs you fight in the Realm are underpowered because of this.  This one...well...not so underpowered...   :o


The remaining 5 party members return to Specularum, get married , have kids, and name them after themselves including their fallen friend Keldar.  This new party of adventurers are given their parents former equipment and trained intensively for the day they will set out in the world.  They are warned time and again, to avoid Ankhegs at all costs.  The parents then spend the rest of their days getting drunk and eating soup at Detho's groghouse, where other adventurers including 5 clerics and a mage hang out.

LOVED this!!!

But the young experienced adventurers decide to play along.  Interestingly the dark wizard offers the party gems for 250 gp, and gems can be traded for magic items.  The party wasn't too interested in the magic item, but since the party gets xp for the value of each gem, and some gems are worth 250, 500, or 2500 gp, the party can keep on trading gems for gold and selling the gems back to get lots of xp!  The party incurred a net gp loss, but got plenty of xp.  Silly wizard....tricks are for kids!

Yeah, this one was clunky, to say the least.  Wasn't sure how else to go about it.  In the end, it kind of works, but definitely leaves the door open for exploitation.  So much in the Realm is "honor system" based, like in real D&D.  If I were a better programmer, I could probably have tightened it up, but I'm barely proficient in Microsoft Office, let alone a hex editor...

Morgoth III was very confident, he had finally made it to the apex where the Soul Gem was stored.  However, the Soul gem was very powerful and fought back.  It cast Fire Shield and Disintegration at Morgoth III, but he made his save.  Morgoth III then proceeded to attack the Soul Gem with his magic sword.

Unfortunately upon being hit, the Soul Gem auto-matically did 30 magic damage to Morgoth III, slaying him instantly.  The Soul Gem earned 5000 xp for defeating Morgoth, with an additional 1000 xp for claiming another soul with another 3000 xp for 3000 gp worth of items, enough to place the soul gem at the next experience level.  Now, the soul gem is capable of casting 3 spells before adventurers may attempt to strike it.

In this instance it wasn't Ray who killed Morgoth III, it was those evil designers.  I found an editor program that allowed me to make a few changes in the game for that last battle.  I reduced the casting time of Fire Shield to zero, like Delayed Blast Fireball, and then I increased the Soul Gem's Dexterity to 25.  Then I Surprised the party automatically in the combat event.  Why would I do such a horrid thing?  It was the only way I could think of to give the Soul Gem it's defensive aura.  The Soul Gem, as written, deals damage back to those who wound it.  The fire shield effect mimicked that, but only if I could get the spell cast right away.  This worked out, though it has the appearance of cheating, since the Soul Gem casts this spell so quickly...It's actually something the Soul Gem just...does...

Somehow, I don't think that would make Morgoth III hate me any less...   :'(


1. Green slime is invulnerable to any attack except the cure disease spell.  There are no clerics in the party, but if there were, why would they memorize cure disease?  Secondly, green slimes can be destroyed by frost or fire, but Unlimited Adventures does not let you buy or use torches!  So as a result, Green Slimes are nigh invincible monster in the Computer Game.

Correct again!  That is why green slimes in the Realm have very few hit points.  They're both inherently unfair and among my top five monsters in the pen-and-paper game.  Despite the unfairness I couldn't bring myself to ignore them completely, not with so many awesome combat icons created by the FRUA community and begging to be put to use!!!


Offline Ray

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Re: Unlimited Adventures - Exploring the Realm
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2010, 08:03:01 PM »
Not to be deterred, our adventurers pressed on into the woods, defeating minor monsters here and there, but they eventually faced their most fearsome monster yet!  Bambardier Beetles!  Our adventurers got very worried when these beetles started casting a spell.  Before they knew it though, Two Cloud Kills were summoned on top of the party.  The last remaining party member Allistaire IV fought hard and killed several beetles while they were pondering whether or not to kill him instantly with cloud kill.  Allistaire IV suggested that with the ability to cast cloud kill, these beetles could easily take over the world, and he promptly put several larvae inside his body as a token of his sincerity.

Oh, wow...That's really barbaric of me...

My first thought was, There's just no way I would have done that!

Then I thought, It does sound vaguely familiar...

I believe my thinking was that the minimum level for this adventure was high enough that no one should be killed outright by the cloudkill.  Instead, it would linger and inflict 1d12 damage, which is serious, but not immediately fatal.  Further rationalization stated that lower-level characters would never survive to make it that far into the design, anyway.  I sense an error in that judgment call...


While resting, the party forgot that Malis V was diseased.  They would have tried to go see a Cleric, but they had already typed in 30 days to rest, and couldn't undo that decision.  So, the party rested 25 days in the inn with their brother's corpse in there with them.  The party promptly went back home, buried their brother and fetched their younger sibling, Malis VI to replace him.

Hit the Space Bar!  Hit the Space Bar! 

That allows you to stop resting!!!

What a horrible image...I've got to bleach my eyes...And my brain...

In the structure the party came across a humanoid statue, when the wand it held was pressed left, gas was released everywhere and damaged the party, when pressed to the right, the party was flipped into a 1 cell corridor with 4 walls and no means of escape.  The party screamed for help, but all died from suffocation.

Oh, the deathtrap.  How very Tom Moldvay...


This party participates in Keep on the Borderlands B2.  They go to the swamps and kill many lizardmen and giant lizards.  They also killed a hill giant family and fought a green dragon, which proceeded to eat the entire party.  This is the end of playing modules converted by Ray Dyer as the green dragon and hill giants were not present in the original module and are hardly apppropriate for a module designed for characters levels 1-3.

Just like everything else, there's a story behind that one.  B2 includes a second cave, aside from the Caves of Chaos.  It's called the Caves of the Unknown.  When I was a kid, one of my earliest memories gaming was playing through this module with my Dad.  It was one of the two times my Uncle played with us, and it was really a big deal in my childhood.  Well, the first game we played led to a crushing defeat in the goblin cave, with the ogre killing my elf and my uncle being captured and hauled off into the caves as a prisoner.  After all these years, a part of me is still trying to get back to that game and save him.  I know; I'm strange like that.

The other game, we decided to go to the other cave.  The Caves of Chaos had ended our last characters, so we figured this next one couldn't be so bad.  Well, on the way to the Cave of the Unknown, we started to see a large shape fly overhead.  Then we got a closer look.  This was just my Dad's way of telling us that we were taunting disaster if we didn't turn back.  The module doesn't detail what is in the Cave of the Unknown; it was part of the whole "how to" approach of the early D&D modules.  Left to his own devices, Dad decided that this was a Dungeons & Dragons module, and so there should be a dragon.  Well, my uncle and I weren't to be driven off my any sort of "subtle" hints.  We pressed on...and died before every stepping foot across the threshold of that cave.

When the time came to convert Keep on the Borderlands, I immediately thought of that encounter.  I loaded up a few warning statements, and then put in the dragon.  What works really well is to go there after clearing out all the other caves.  Then you get to slay the dragon and really put a capstone on a game full of dungeons, but that was--till that day--sorely lacking in dragons!




Bill, thanks again for being such a good sport.  I don't know whether you'll ever try again, but I truly appreciate the time you put into playing these designs, and even moreso the time you put into expressing your experiences for us here on the forums.  I know you experienced one giant frustration after another, just from reading what you wrote, but it seems you kept a sense of humor throughout.  These come from a younger time in my life, but they were absolutely a labor of love.  I hope some of that love showed through, ameliorating some of the labor, and that you found some enjoyment between TPKs...


Offline Ben J

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Re: Unlimited Adventures - Exploring the Realm
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2010, 03:41:01 AM »
Look vs. Search:

There should really be a hack to turn off the "Search" button entirely! Can it be done?

Otherwise, having my own PCs tell me that they don't want to search strikes me as a somewhat awkward way of avoiding the option.

It reminds me of the frustrating experience of playing "Monkey Island III": My character is standing in a ship's hull, filled to the brim with treasure. I can click on a lot of objects, yet my character keeps telling me that he doesn't want any of it: "No, I don't need this, I don't want this, why would I want to pick this up?" Then there are some tiny, random objects that he decides he does need, so he picks them up without further complaint.
If the character that I'm supposed to play knows exactly what he wants and doesn't want to do, he can play the game by himself. After all, he doesn't need me to tell him what to do, does he?

A nicer way to discourage the player from using the search option would be to tell him "The party is searching, but doesn't find anything". The player will soon get tired of having to read that text every step (unfortunately, I don't have the space left in my game to implement something like this, so you basically get to search everywhere).

But the most elegant way would be to just remove the "search" button. I'm not a hacker, though,  so I don't know if it can be done.
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Offline Ray

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Re: Unlimited Adventures - Exploring the Realm
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2010, 07:41:07 AM »

That's exactly my situation.  I have no skill at hacking, so I had to make due with what I have.  Sometimes the PCs say that they are nervous, sometimes the PCs say come back to report something different.  Due to the wonders of FRUA, each and every dungeon of each and every design required a different global message.  So, you''ll get between ten and thirty-six different Search responses in any Realm game, which range from "Hey, boss, didn't find anything," to (often much later in the game, "Boss, come on...we've gone over this.  We've just taken three steps in a half hour in an empty hallway..."

If a hack had been available to remove the Search button (and maybe put blinking Christmas lights around the Look button), I would have been all over it!   8)


Offline Olivier Leroux

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Re: Unlimited Adventures - Exploring the Realm
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2010, 10:18:26 AM »
Ben J's is in fact a valid point, I just wanted to chime in and say that personally I never minded that much. I always appreciate variety, surprises and a little taunt and mockery, too, even if directed at myself. Much more fun than just reading "You find nothing".

On the other hand the focus of the game probably shouldn't be on finding out what snide remarks your companion hold in store for you this time... ;)

I have to confess when I imitated Ray's method in my own designs I hadn't even thought of the possibility of other players not liking it and why.  :-\

Offline Ben J

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Re: Unlimited Adventures - Exploring the Realm
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2010, 01:36:06 PM »
Ben J's is in fact a valid point, I just wanted to chime in and say that personally I never minded that much. I always appreciate variety, surprises and a little taunt and mockery, too, even if directed at myself. Much more fun than just reading "You find nothing".

I think it's more like treating it as a standard option of the game. I wouldn't expect the game to come up with a funny remark every time I'm unsuccessfully clicking the "area" option. If area view is unavailable, the game will just say "Not here" each time.

In "The Sect", I have outsourced the sarcastic remarks to a certain NPC and a host of other characters. It's a matter of taste, but I like my PCs to remain silent, because they're me, and I am them.

That's not to say that I dislike PCs with a mind of their own per se. You did it quite well in "Two Cities", and hans does it all the time.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 01:38:46 PM by Ben J »
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Bill Bisco

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Re: Unlimited Adventures - Exploring the Realm
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2010, 02:41:30 PM »

Hey, Bill,

I feel for you; this sounds like an exorcise in abject misery.  While reading, I did have a few questions, though...and maybe some comments.  Perhaps this might help you be a little bit less frustrated in the future...should you ever decide to give it another whirl!
Thanks Ray,  ;)  It wasn't all that bad, and I did enjoy it overall, although certainly some parts were frustrating.  Writing about it is therapeutic and gives me and others a chance to laugh at the misfortune of the adventurers  ;D

Couple things off the top:

1. Group Size: As you mentioned later, the game is definitely balanced for a party of six.  Sometimes NPCs will come and go, occasionally bolstering your ranks to eight, but each game expects that the group start with six.  A smaller group will definitely face more frequent TPKs, especially at lower levels.
2. Level Range: Most games have a "sweet spot" in the center of the range, considering a group of characters risen from first level in Realm games.  As mentioned above, this anticipates a party of six characters, and also some of the "big prizes," which are routinely won in the treasure hoards of the modules' big bads.  Reading through your experiences, I suspect that some of those were never reached, so even when experience and levels were won, the commensurate treasures didn't come along with it.  That would definitely create another imbalance!
3. Nol mentioned this already, but I'd definitely recommend a look at the Realm site if the mood ever strikes you to try again.  The site offers an order of play in each region, and a FAQ created based on a lot of the questions I've received over the last ten+ years.  Certainly, it's not necessary to play the games, but there are explanations of things like the LOOK vs. SEARCH controversy, I believe the AREA VIEW choices, and so forth.  The site can be found at: http://therealm.flopsyville.com/Menu.htm

1. Yeah indeed, although its not apparent just from these posts on this forum, all of these were originally wrote on another forum: Dragonsfoot Campaign Journals, as they occurred, so the first post I had was at the very beginning of using Unlimited Adventures in a long time, with future posts being a few days ahead of time.  While future posts had me more familiar with playing it. Only the first 3 or 4 parties had 4 members, every other party used 6 people.

2. I eventually learned that playing REF5 Skeletons, was the best adventure to start any party on, as there is a very low chance of TPK, is quick, and gives a sizeable amount of gold to buy armor and better weapons with.  After the party that lost to the Necromancer in the mini-adventure, party members were always within the range or above the range.  The problem occured with the Bombadier beetles, and the adventure being listed for party members levels 5-8 where level 5 = insta death no save.

3. Oh indeed, and I had considered trying to go on one of the suggested orders, but since you put so much work into making the world map and including mini-adventures on certain spots.  It felt more true to participate in adventures as I found them on the map, and of course I had to avoid several due to high level.

This really confuses me, because it sounds like your characters walked directly to the end of the game.  You seem to be very well-read in the classic modules, so I'm guessing you recognized A4.  What's odd about this is that the version of Game01 that I uploaded back in, oh, something like 1998 or something, had a bug that started the game there.  The first reviews came back rather ugly, and a bug-fixed version was quickly uploaded.  I have heard about this happening to someone in a looooong time! 

Do you recall how you got to the island so quickly?  Did you start there?  Did you walk there?  Even if you chose to walk past the landmark for A1, you should not have been able to get to A2-A4 until you doubled back.  I'm really confused by this one!
I got game one from http://frua.rosedragon.org/modulelist/hacked.php  It says Sept. 1998 so it's possible that I downloaded the game without a bug fix.  I probably made my party and directly started on A4.  It's possible that I saved my game on the worldmap and transferred that save onto Game 1.  I simply started at a big Island with lava in it, and apparently people were running away from the slavers, hehe.

I actually have played very few modules.  One reason that I wanted to play The Realm, was so that I would have the opportunity to experience these adventures that I would be unlikely to in real life.

You've got some brave adventurers!  The description included a level range again...these guys went anyway?  One thing that I'm sure you've found is that the adventures for levels 1-3 start with either a Shop event or a town where shopping can be performed.  The higher level adventures often skip those events for two reasons.  First, they're often unnecessary.  Second, almost every game in the Realm ends with a chance to train, shop and sleep.  It seems like the biggest problem these folks ran into was that they kept "escaping" modules and moving onto the next.  Palace of the Silver Princess, for instance.  Without getting to the end, there was no chance to rest.  The next game assumed that the previous was completed, and so resting at the beginning would have been redundant (and, back in the day, would have resulted in complaints from more than one reviewer...)
Well, these guys were level 1, since the other party members died at the slave lords.  They joined this module, because the description on the world map (unlike other places) did not mention that Drums of Fire Mountain was for levels 5-8, in fact the worldmap says nothing of that module's suggested levels.

The problem with sleeping and resting occurs when you have to reload another module to sleep and rest and buy equipment, and then reload the module you want to play.  It's certainly not perfect, but I'd rather have a chance to sleep, train, and buy or sell equipment before being shipped off to a place where I can't do those things.

This was one of the times I wondered how you were going about these games.  If you leave one design to move into another, you would need to restart the original game if you were to return it.  Moving "Saved Games" from one FRUA design to another is a recipe for disaster, since most games start by setting certain quest flags to specific values.  So, the three quests to find Wave, Whelm and Blackrazer that are set at the beginning of White Plume Mountain may well be the variables that govern whether you've cleared the Hommlet moathouse, befriended Otto in Nulb and freed Zuggtmoy in the Temple of Elemental Evil design. 

If you aren't moving saved games but instead moving character files (per the documentation in UAShell), then you'll find that all your quests were reset when you return to Temple of Elemental Evil.  Effectively, the whole game will re-pop.  That's no big deal if you're never planning to return to the Temple, of course. 

I'm not sure which route you were taking, but some statements made me wonder a bit, because either will result in games behaving weirdly.  For instance, if you started a design before heading to the Slave Lords in Game01, then one of these quest flags could very well have opened the doors to the slave lords' stronghold!
Well originally, I thought you went from design to design by exiting the town, going to the worldmap, saving that game, then transferring that save to another design.  Then on the worldmap of the new design, enter the square you're supposed to go to.  This worked for a few adventures such as REF5 Skeletons and Journey to the Rock.  One only thing which slightly tipped me off was "Do you want to return to Hommlet?" which seemed kinda strange.  When I tried this for White Plume Mountain and as soon as I entered the adventure square I got bells cheering that I saved them, I knew that I had done something wrong.  It was later that I discovered that you're supposed to save the game, reload the game, and remove all characters to update them, then copy over those characters to a new design.

3. The Designer hates searching and hates sleeping.  Quite honestly in actual play I would sleep in the dungeon often.  Whenever the party searches,the Designer makes the player wade through scrolling text to try to dissauge them from continued searching.  This is silly though since the modules contain hidden items that you can only find by searching.  And yes, contrary to your words, the adventurers do have all the time in the world.


I also strongly disagree with the notion that "adventurers do have all the time in the world."  I understand it's the difference between playing styles, but the Realm was created to generate a tabletop atmosphere.  I can count on one hand how many times players in my games have slept in a dungeon.  The logistics of it, and the imminent danger of bedding down in the deadliest spot possible rather than making a tactical withdrawal...It's has happened, but less than five times in the eleven-year campaign I'm running now, and about as many in the ten-year game before that.  The 1E DMG is loaded with additional reasons, from leeches to parasites to disease, not to mention the usual throngs of wandering monsters.  FRUA won't allow the majority of that; and FRUA's camp-encounter engine is horribly flawed, so the designer is left with two basic choices, either allow unlimited rest or allow no rest at all.
Yeah, I'm sure that FRUA isn't lenient when it comes to flexibility.  The problem with no resting happens when the cost of not resting is greater than the danger of resting.  When my party has less than 10 hp left each and no spells, they really need to rest.  My parties tend to clear entire levels of dungeons, and sleep in areas they found other monsters sleeping.

This is the catch-22 of designing something like the Realm.  I don't know whether someone is playing a fifth level group or a twentieth-level group.  So I've tried to avoid things that say, "You All Die...So There!"  I touch on this in the FAQ over on the Realm site.  By the same token, the game was not designed for high-level characters in mind.  So, to balance it, I tried to give some clues...and then let the dice fall where they may.  Someone playing a high-level group would be sorely pissed if I told them they could not face the misty dragon thing and go home as they pleased.  On the other hand, someone playing a low-level group would be equally displeased if they were rendered to ash simply for walking through the door, no warning provided.  So, the middle ground I landed on was to divert the party arbitrarily the first time, with a description of what sent them running...and then stat out the "unstoppable monster"  if they went back anyway. 

Ironically, this is my best attempt at avoiding the railroading that was mentioned earlier.  A higher-level party could have killed the monster and gone about their business, no railroading involved.  For a lower-level party, they have it in their power to choose the means of their demise, or to go back inside and find another way home!
I went to this adventure within the level suggestions, at this point I had not gone to an adventure outside the suggestions for awhile.  It wasn't dying to the dragon that was annoying moreso that a dragon that shot lightning at the party burst into acid killing other party members, funny too of course  :D

This whole section made me think it would be awesome to play a "real" game with you.  Of course, you have something like 96 reasons to kill me on sight just in these few posts, so that may not be a very wise choice on my part...   ;)
Well technically only 22, but in real life players tend to be less foolhardy and DMs tend to hand out fewer TPKs  ;) It'd be great to game with you in real life  :)

Don't follow the logic on this one.  If goblins sleep in a place, it makes sense that their buddies know that they slept there.  So, if I'm beaten and exhausted and weak, the last place I want to spend the next six-to-eight hours is in the most likely place for things to come and try to kill me...

Granted, there are some situations where the monsters are all dead, and even I have become frustrated sometimes, but I've never been able to fathom sleeping in a monster's lair, unless it's the largest monster in the region and rules others by sheer terror.  And there are some lairs that say as much in the Realm, and sleeping is permitted there.
In the Frost queen's fortress there are rooms that army soldiers sleep in, there is also a room that the lieutenant slept in, that you must bash or pick the lock to get through.  The party was down to 3 injured people, dragging 3 others with them.  It makes little sense for the party to continue to search the Frost Queen's Fotress, hoping to take her out with half a party rather than to lock the door of the lieutenant's room and rest a bit.

Quote from: Ray
In this instance it wasn't Ray who killed Morgoth III, it was those evil designers.  I found an editor program that allowed me to make a few changes in the game for that last battle.  I reduced the casting time of Fire Shield to zero, like Delayed Blast Fireball, and then I increased the Soul Gem's Dexterity to 25.  Then I Surprised the party automatically in the combat event.  Why would I do such a horrid thing?  It was the only way I could think of to give the Soul Gem it's defensive aura.  The Soul Gem, as written, deals damage back to those who wound it.  The fire shield effect mimicked that, but only if I could get the spell cast right away.  This worked out, though it has the appearance of cheating, since the Soul Gem casts this spell so quickly...It's actually something the Soul Gem just...does...

Somehow, I don't think that would make Morgoth III hate me any less...   :'(
Aw, it's alright  :D   I wasn't aware of the Actual Soul Gem mechanics, but reading that, it seems you did a good way of addressing it using the mechanics you had to work with I must say.


Oh, wow...That's really barbaric of me...

My first thought was, There's just no way I would have done that!

Then I thought, It does sound vaguely familiar...

I believe my thinking was that the minimum level for this adventure was high enough that no one should be killed outright by the cloudkill.  Instead, it would linger and inflict 1d12 damage, which is serious, but not immediately fatal.  Further rationalization stated that lower-level characters would never survive to make it that far into the design, anyway.  I sense an error in that judgment call...
Yeah, the adventure said 5-8 level characters and my party was 5th.  If the overland map and module sad 6-8 level characters, it would not be as bad.

Hit the Space Bar!  Hit the Space Bar! 

That allows you to stop resting!!!

What a horrible image...I've got to bleach my eyes...And my brain...
Wow, I had no idea the space bar could do that!  ;D

Just like everything else, there's a story behind that one.  B2 includes a second cave, aside from the Caves of Chaos.  It's called the Caves of the Unknown.  When I was a kid, one of my earliest memories gaming was playing through this module with my Dad.  It was one of the two times my Uncle played with us, and it was really a big deal in my childhood.  Well, the first game we played led to a crushing defeat in the goblin cave, with the ogre killing my elf and my uncle being captured and hauled off into the caves as a prisoner.  After all these years, a part of me is still trying to get back to that game and save him.  I know; I'm strange like that.
Not at all man, not at all.  I still regret a TPK I inflicted on own and fellow party members when I felt our characters really needed a challenge.

The other game, we decided to go to the other cave.  The Caves of Chaos had ended our last characters, so we figured this next one couldn't be so bad.  Well, on the way to the Cave of the Unknown, we started to see a large shape fly overhead.  Then we got a closer look.  This was just my Dad's way of telling us that we were taunting disaster if we didn't turn back.  The module doesn't detail what is in the Cave of the Unknown; it was part of the whole "how to" approach of the early D&D modules.  Left to his own devices, Dad decided that this was a Dungeons & Dragons module, and so there should be a dragon.  Well, my uncle and I weren't to be driven off my any sort of "subtle" hints.  We pressed on...and died before every stepping foot across the threshold of that cave.

When the time came to convert Keep on the Borderlands, I immediately thought of that encounter.  I loaded up a few warning statements, and then put in the dragon.  What works really well is to go there after clearing out all the other caves.  Then you get to slay the dragon and really put a capstone on a game full of dungeons, but that was--till that day--sorely lacking in dragons!
Yeah, getting eaten by a dragon wasn't so bad, but it was the fact that I went to the Borderlands as a 5th level party hoping to survive and fighting a green dragon that was the straw for me, hehe.

Bill, thanks again for being such a good sport.  I don't know whether you'll ever try again, but I truly appreciate the time you put into playing these designs, and even moreso the time you put into expressing your experiences for us here on the forums.  I know you experienced one giant frustration after another, just from reading what you wrote, but it seems you kept a sense of humor throughout.  These come from a younger time in my life, but they were absolutely a labor of love.  I hope some of that love showed through, ameliorating some of the labor, and that you found some enjoyment between TPKs...
Thank you again for making them.  I might play some again, but not for awhile, hehe.  I'm sure they were a labor of love and that you enjoyed making them.  Take care.

Sincerely,
Bill

Offline Nol Drek

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Re: Unlimited Adventures - Exploring the Realm
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2010, 07:32:25 PM »

2. Putting up text to discourage the party from searching is hypocritical since often many items can only be found by searching.  Also, many modules cannot be completed unless the party finds a few secret doors, and secret doors are revealed by searching

Nothing can be found only by Searching.  Look does the same thing in every case.  I've found that quite a few experienced FRUA gamers never realized this, even though it's a carry over from the Gold Box games that a lot of us fell in love with back in the 80s.  I'll never forget stepping into the stables in the slums of Phlan for the first time and thinking, "I wonder..."  I clicked Look and found a bag of treasure...My love of the game was cemented at that moment!

> look

You are in an open field west of a big white house with a boarded
front door.
There is a small mailbox here.

>
"Into the Drachensgrab Mountains!"

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Offline DesertScrb

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Re: Unlimited Adventures - Exploring the Realm
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2010, 08:59:10 PM »
> OPEN MAILBOX

Offline Kaz-Keith

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Re: Unlimited Adventures - Exploring the Realm
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2010, 09:07:04 PM »
> GET UA NEWSLETTER FROM MAILBOX

There is no ua newsletter here.  Perhaps a grue took it?

You are suddenly saddened.

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Re: Unlimited Adventures - Exploring the Realm
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2010, 09:30:37 PM »
> KNOCK ON DOOR